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Thread: Genotyping of 390,000 SNPs in more than 40 3-9k year old humans from the Russian steppes.2131 days old

  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viivanpää View Post
    Pomors are obviously genetically very pure Finnic. They behave very differently even compared to Kargopol Russians.
    Thanks for posting this information. I've never seen DNA tests on Pomors. I suspect the Russians from the north, whatever are their origins, will only accept Russian identity. They speak Russian , they are culturally Russian having Russian mentality. Pomors were considered as a sub-group of Russians for a long time. This cultural distinction disappeared during urbanisation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    How so? In fact the study suggests the exact opposite: That L23 was a major IE lineage, just like R1a.
    No they're not equal. It's very clear from the study that R1a was the dominant PIE lineage, and mainly responsible for spreading Corded Ware from Yamnaya into continental and northern Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    There's really no way around that from now on, and I'm quite certain that other L23 subclades (say, L51) will be found in other parts of the Yamna horizon.
    Well, if any R1b clade was proto-Indo-European, you'll have to explain why in all these years of population genetics, no common and major R1b Y-SNP has been detected and identified as PIE. What's the R1b equivalent to R1a-M417+? What's the R1b Y-SNP mutation seen in significant proportions in both Europe and India/Iran? Where's the R1b in the Tarim mummies?

    Let's not kid ourselves here: the role R1b had in spreading early waves of post-PIE Indo-European daughter languages, if it actually had any, was a small role. And that's the final verdict as far as I'm concerned, and I base this conclusion of mine on the results from the Haak et al. 2015 paper.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    You realize we now have evidence of ancient Yamnaya PIE R1b has lived in Russian heartland region for at least the last 7650+/- years B.P ? You realize that the area within the Eastern section of Yamnaya where the samples were taken show the greatest variance of any set of ancient samples taken spanning a time frame of 7650+/- to 4637+/- years? You realize they have dated PIE R1b samples with Z-2105 mutation dated to 5000-5500+/-B.P.. You do realize PIE R1b -Z2105-Cts-7822+9219+ is found in Corded Ware region where they have found the oldest dated Karelian R1a sample to date 7000+/-B.P.? You do realize the genetic scientists can tie the Yamnaya region together with Europe using autosomal results from the Yamnaya R1b 7500 B.P+/- samples to such areas as Norway?. You do realize that early horse domestication is around Botai region?

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults


    You do realize that the same R1b-Z2105 found in Yamnaya is also found in Botai region? You do realize that various branches of R1b-Z2105 can be found in areas that have R1a-283[Karlian region] and R1a-93[Mede/Kurd/Punjab region]? You do realize that R1b-Z2105 can be found in languages like Albanian?
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults
    and Armenian?

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults
    http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml
    R1b was also found in Neolithic Spain so this Samara R1b is not the oldest. Both Neolithic Samara and Neolithic Iberia R1b are not ancestral to western european r1b. This results have shown us that L51 could theoretically orginate anywhere between iberia, anatolia and samara and that R1b was already in late neolithic times were widespread in western eurasia. It makes sense that Post-PIEs spread Z2103 but there are no concrete evidences found yet that L51 orginated in Yamna and played a role in the early disperal of Indo-European languages from the Steppe. The Bell Beakers have no direct connection to Yamna (maybe a indirect?) unlike Corded Ware and Andronovo who had no R1b.
    Iberia and other areas in western europe were still non-indo-european speaking when romans arrived there so it is unlikely that Indo-europeans arrived in Iberia with Bell Beakers already 4500 years ago. The celts were the first Indo-Europeans in Iberia and they arrived there from Hallstatt (8th to 6th centuries BC), which is ultimately derived from Unetice.

    R1b is not very widespread anywhere in south asia and brahmins who have best preserved indo-iranian paternal lineages lack it almost. Some muslims in pakistan have some r1b but this can be easily explained with recent arab, turkic or persian admixture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woin View Post
    R1b was also found in Neolithic Spain so this Samara R1b is not the oldest. Both Neolithic Samara and Neolithic Iberia R1b are not ancestral to western european r1b. This results have shown us that L51 could theoretically orginate anywhere between iberia, anatolia and samara and that R1b was already in late neolithic times were widespread in western eurasia.
    That R1b Samara guy is the oldest indeed. Furthermore he was near the oldest R1a too, and they both plot at about the same place genetically. The oldest basal R* by far was in Siberia. Don't forget they all share an autosomal component called ANE (Ancestral North Eurasian). It is pretty clear, at this time, that area is likely where the R1 mutation took place (somewhere in North Eurasia in what is now Russia).



    As for the Spanish R1b-M269-, a poster on Anthrogenica explained it in very clear terms:

    For those who still need it, the El Trocs R1b1 guy had a line like this: M207>M173>M343>M415 (M415 is on the same level as P25).

    All of the Yamnaya guys save one (who was R1b-P297) had lines that went at least this far: M207>M173>M343>M415>P297>M269>L23. Five of the seven got a step further, a couple to Z2105, and a couple to Z2103 (Z2105 and Z2103 are on the same level).

    By far most European R1b's today track like this: M207>M173>M343>M415>P297>M269>L23 and then on to L51>L11 and then either to P312 or U106 and beyond to some terminal SNP downstream of either of those.

    Notice that the Samara Yamnaya boys and we modern Westerners have that same M207>M173>M343>M415>P297>M269>L23 track. We part company with some (but not all) of them just past L23, where some of them descend from a Z2103/Z2105 ancestor who was a relative of our L51 ancestor. My own opinion is that L51 (and maybe L11) was in Yamnaya but in the part that went west, into the Carpathian Basin, the Hungarian Plain, and on up the Danube, getting caught up in Corded Ware and Beaker, especially the latter.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    No they're not equal. It's very clear from the study that R1a was the dominant PIE lineage, and mainly responsible for spreading Corded Ware from Yamnaya into continental and northern Europe.
    Quite the opposite. If you consider that Yamnaya samples themselves and the older sample were R1b. The Yamnaya samples came from widely different places in a region which is considered a core area.

    East of the river Don, West of the Urals, North of the Caspian Sea. And quite distant from Cucuteni.

    'The earliest Kurgan graves are known from the steppe area between the River Don and the Urals, north of the Caucasus range and north of the Caspian Sea (exactly the same place the samples were collected). Most of them are known from the lower Volga region. West of the Don, north of the Sea of Azov, the Crimea, the lower Dnieper, and Dniester regions, the Kurgan appeared as intruders'.
    "The Kurgan culture and the Indo-Europeanization of Europe", pages 94 & 95, by Gimbutas

    You see, the samples collected were not from the area where the Kurgan appeared as intruders. They are from the area where they first appeared. But still not from the same place (and yet all of them turned out R1b-M269+).

    Four of the remains came from near Lopatino on the Sok River, and three of them came from the following three ancient cemeteries:

    • Ekaterinovka, ~80 miles (128 km) southwest of the city of Samara
    • Ishkinovka I, ~354 miles (570 km) southeast of Lopatino
    • Kutuluk, ~37 miles (60 km) east of the city of Samara

    It is not only the area of Yamnaya, but also of Khvalynsk, which preceded it (classic PIE homeland):

    These three cultures (the Samara, and successors the Khvalynsk and early Yamna) have roughly the same range. Marija Gimbutas was the first to regard it as the Urheimat (homeland) of the Proto-Indo-European language and to hypothesize that the Eneolithic culture of the region was in fact Proto-Indo-European. If this model is true, then the Samara culture becomes overwhelmingly important for Indo-European studies.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samara_culture

    The map comes from Mallory's book "In Search of the Indo Europeans" (not from Wikipedia):
    http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...ronzeAgeEn.htm


    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    So, the Yamnaya R1b was definitely outside of original proto-Indo-European territory.
    Are you overlooking the quote I gave you of Gimbutas? She and David Anthony paid a special attention to that region. Samara and Khvalynsk preceded Yamnaya. That's where Kurgan first appeared and it is considered PIE homeland.

    And don't forget: the R1b-M269+ Yamnayan samples were 100% Yamnayan genetically, the Corded Ware were 75%.
    Last edited by Ubirajara; 2015-02-14 at 18:05.
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  9. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Really? It seems to me that local Carelian paternal lineages are doing quite fine, at least in terms of existence, in and around Archangel.
    It seems to me that the original people of Karelia were aR1ans and what you call "local Carelian paternal lineages" were later migrants from Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    No they're not equal. It's very clear from the study that R1a was the dominant PIE lineage, and mainly responsible for spreading Corded Ware from Yamnaya into continental and northern Europe.
    Clearly, they're not equal: R1a hasn't been found in Yamna remains yet
    If I were to apply that kind of logic, I could easily argue that R1a wasn't present in the PIE-speaking community and that it was an Indo-Europeanised lineage. Of course, that would be sheer lunacy, but it could still work.
    Claiming that R1b had a minor role in the spread of IE however, isn't going to work.

    Well, if any R1b clade was proto-Indo-European, you'll have to explain why in all these years of population genetics, no common and major R1b Y-SNP has been detected and identified as PIE. What's the R1b equivalent to R1a-M417+? What's the R1b Y-SNP mutation seen in significant proportions in both Europe and India/Iran? Where's the R1b in the Tarim mummies?
    The R1b equivalent to R1a-M417? Considering the results we've just stumbled upon, I'd say L23. Also, the R1a-R1b dichotomy you're referring to is based on contemporary frequencies, and if there's anything we've learnt from all the studies on ancient samples to date, it's that contemporary populations are utterly useless proxies if we are to uncover past demographic events.

    Let's not kid ourselves here: the role R1b had in spreading early waves of post-PIE Indo-European daughter languages, if it actually had any, was a small role. And that's the final verdict as far as I'm concerned, and I base this conclusion of mine on the results from the Haak et al. 2015 paper.
    As I said, the paper suggests the exact opposite, there's really no way around that. Eventually, I'm sure we'll find more R1b (such as L51) in the Yamna horizon, along with R1a.


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    Those Bronze Age samples are just red herrings to distract you from the actual arrivals of populations with Semitic ancestry. Don’t take the bait by focusing on the wrong samples, lol. He is passing off Bronze Age Levantines with no evidence of strong predynastic input, as “Semites“. This way, he can flip it around and say Proto-Semitic speakers and predynastics were more or less identical to the Bronze Age Levantines sampled so far.
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    @Semitic Duwa

    Wonder what the resident Proto-Semite has to say about this. I thought unmixed Egyptians were supposed to be Abusir with less/zero Chl?

    In your view, does this prove you wrong, or is it just a coincidence () that M1 is absent in one of the three subsamples from Abusir, and rare overall?

    And don’t change your signature now, please. I’m looking forward to you looking more and more incompetent as more aDNA is published. Wish there was a way to speed this up. But the extra wait and seeing you with your pants down every day, kinda has its own appeal, too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woin View Post
    R1b was also found in Neolithic Spain so this Samara R1b is not the oldest. Both Neolithic Samara and Neolithic Iberia R1b are not ancestral to western european r1b. This results have shown us that L51 could theoretically orginate anywhere between iberia, anatolia and samara and that R1b was already in late neolithic times were widespread in western eurasia. It makes sense that Post-PIEs spread Z2103 but there are no concrete evidences found yet that L51 orginated in Yamna and played a role in the early disperal of Indo-European languages from the Steppe. The Bell Beakers have no direct connection to Yamna (maybe a indirect?) unlike Corded Ware and Andronovo who had no R1b.
    Iberia and other areas in western europe were still non-indo-european speaking when romans arrived there so it is unlikely that Indo-europeans arrived in Iberia with Bell Beakers already 4500 years ago. The celts were the first Indo-Europeans in Iberia and they arrived there from Hallstatt (8th to 6th centuries BC), which is ultimately derived from Unetice.

    R1b is not very widespread anywhere in south asia and brahmins who have best preserved indo-iranian paternal lineages lack it almost. Some muslims in pakistan have some r1b but this can be easily explained with recent arab, turkic or persian admixture.
    Look no offense Woin or Rugevit, I have no clue who you are. You could be Arabic or Turkic or Pakistani, I really have no clue. Im tired from shoveling snow. I would feel more comfortable if you provide your results as authentic Russian or German or mix before talking about your own history. I prefer Eurogenes but calculator by Russian's is also good here is one from a few years back by Russian from this forum. I'll post my results then feel free to post yours, how does that sound? Then I will talk/post about 7000 year old Yamnaya R1b with both of you if you show me you are my brothers?
    MDLP World-22 4-Ancestors Oracle look like a mix of Yamnaya and Corded Ware.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Ukrainian-Center @ 3.461079
    2 Ukrainian-East @ 3.893729
    3 Polish_V @ 4.118360
    4 Belarusian_V @ 4.187904
    5 Ukrainian @ 4.251499
    6 Ukrainian_V @ 4.518208
    7 Russian_cossack @ 4.520288
    8 Russian_South @ 4.675953
    9 Sorb @ 4.794154
    10 Ukrainian-West @ 5.418853

    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 North-East-European + Kosovar + Russian_South + Russian_South @ 2.100775
    2 North-East-European + Kosovar + Russian + Ukrainian-Center @ 2.125510
    3 North-East-European + Kosovar + Polish_V + Russian_South @ 2.171624
    4 North-East-European + Kosovar + Polish + Russian_South @ 2.192065
    5 North-East-European + German_V + Latvian_V + Slovenian @ 2.199071
    Or you can use Dienekes who made this one many years ago and give input to paper.

    Dodecad K12b Oracle results:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 52.8% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 47.2% Russian_B (Behar) @ 1.37
    2 67.3% German (Dodecad) + 32.7% Russian_B (Behar) @ 1.49
    3 65.7% German (Dodecad) + 34.3% Russian (Dodecad) @ 1.74
    4 53.4% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) + 46.6% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 1.74
    5 57.2% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) + 42.8% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 1.91
    6 61.8% German (Dodecad) + 38.2% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 1.96
    7 57.5% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) + 42.5% English (Dodecad) @ 1.97
    8 53.4% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) + 46.6% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 2
    9 58% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) + 42% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 2.01
    10 61% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) + 39% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.01
    Either way prove to me who you are.
    Last edited by Silesian; 2015-02-14 at 18:34.
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    The individual we refer to as ‘Karelia’ in this study is
    x UZ0074/I0061 (MAE RAS collection number 5773-74, grave number 142) from the ~5500 BCE Mesolithic site Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov (island in Lake Onega) in Karelia, Western Russia, for which a complete mitochondrial genome was published recently4. Mitochondrial HVS I data from eight other individuals from the same site have also been described5.
    I found some interesting info on Oleni Ostrov:

    It seems that two groups, possibly lineages or clans, were using Oleneostrovskii Mogilnik. This is evident from two spatial clusters within the cemetery: the northern cluster is associated with moose sculptures (fig. 2) and the southern cluster with snake and human effigies. The snake and human representations seem to be combined into a single zooanthropomorphic tradition, different from the northern group, whose identity was symbolized by moose representations. Thus, two separate populations shared the use of Oleneostrovskii Mogilnik. The northern cluster was used by people with northern European and Uralic features, more indigenous to the area, while the southern area was used by people with southern European and Siberian features, who might have been newcomers to the area. This interpretation underlines the genetic heterogeneity of the people who used the cemetery. Rather than supporting the existence of two distinct, non-communicating groups, these graduated differences in appearance and genetic makeup instead may reflect "unimpeded gene flow" across the forest zone of eastern Europe, brought about by long-distance travel, intermarriage, and partner exchange that was usual among the northern hunter-gatherer populations.
    http://what-when-how.com/ancient-eur...ncient-europe/

    Y-DNA R1a and mtDNA C1g, so he can be a mixed Siberian and European.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Look no offense Woin or Rugevit, I have no clue who you are. You could be Arabic or Turkic or Pakistani, I really have no clue. Im tired from shoveling snow. I would feel more comfortable if you provide your results as authentic Russian or German or mix before talking about your own history. I prefer Eurogenes but calculator by Russian's is also good here is one from a few years back by Russian from this forum. I'll post my results then feel free to post yours, how does that sound? Then I will talk/post about 7000 year old Yamnaya R1b with both of you if you show me you are my brothers?
    MDLP World-22 4-Ancestors Oracle look like a mix of Yamnaya and Corded Ware.




    Or you can use Dienekes who made this one many years ago and give input to paper.

    Dodecad K12b Oracle results:


    Either way prove to me who you are.
    Tovarisch , Can you please discuss in a rational way and not so hysterically? I am Russian with german blood on the maternal side so dont call me Paki or Turk and i dont need to post anything about me to prove anything . Haha in the past we eastern Europeans were just asian mongrels for you and now you all want desperately to prove yourself as eastern Europeans

    You should just understand that i need more time and more evidences to accept that western european R1b orginated from Yamna and PIEs because in the past nothing supported such an idea and even Richs paper shows no hard evidences for that so prove me please that L51 orginated in the steppe and not in the Balkan, Anatolia or in western /central europe. If i see good evidences for that i will jump on the R1b bandwagon but allow me to be sceptical about that as long as there are no real evidences for that
    Last edited by Woin; 2015-02-14 at 19:30.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Look no offense Woin or Rugevit, I have no clue who you are. You could be Arabic or Turkic or Pakistani, I really have no clue. Im tired from shoveling snow.
    What does my ethnicity have to do with the subject dicussed in this topic? Do you mean the comments on subject concerning Russia can be credible if they are made by people of certain ethnicities?

    It's obvious you don't the history of migrations in north-eastern Europe claiming Russian heratland is in Samara , near Kazakhstan; or the Russians migrated from Samara to Arkhangelsk spreading R1b. Why would anyone want to move to Arkhagelsk located next to Tundra from moderate climate of Samara?

    Anyway, Slavic tribes migrated to Russia from the direction of Belarus and possibly north-eastern Ukraine in 7-8AD settling western and north-western Russia intially. Later Slavs moved in north-eastern direction towards Arkhangelsk. Southern Russia was settled after Kazan Khanate and Astrakhan Khanate were defeated by the Russians in the 16th century. But the major settlements of southern Russia and southern/southern-eastern Ukraine occurred after Crimean Khanate was defeated in the 18th century.


    The distribution of R1b-L23 (xL51) (z2103, z2105) is common in Volga-Ural, Caucases and Anatolia, which has little to do with the expansion of Slavs.









    -----
    You can see my Eurogenes K13 and K15 results here : http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...=1#post1125756
    PCA based on K7 run posted earlier.
    Last edited by Rugevit; 2015-02-14 at 19:32.
    Linux (Ubuntu) Chromium 40.0.2214.111


  19. The Following User Says Thank You to Rugevit For This Useful Post:

    Woin (2015-02-14)

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