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Thread: Allentoft et al. 2015: Population genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia1761 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    It is possible, but I don't like explanations involving "founder effect" as they can be overused to explain just about anything (not in this case, in general). I would prefere explanation in which WHG "hides" in some other Central-South Asian components.
    Another option:

    Quote Originally Posted by parasar
    I have this theory of native component recovery after admixture. Some native markers are selected for and they bring along with them the recovery of their associated component. Recovery of WHG after admixture would therefore be expected in areas where WHG was native and similarly EEF would recover where EEF was native. The converse is also true - Euro WHG type markers would not be selected for in South Asia, and the component would reduce over time in South Asia.

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  4. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen View Post
    I have seen tens of such tests. The question still remains what can those tests prove...
    Jman, I have already played throught this level, let's move onto the next level.
    Blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/, with essence "Believe me, or I'll nuke you".

    H39 - Thracia 1650 BC, Hungary 5000 BC
    I1 - Transdanubia 5000 BC

    Three simple facts about Finns:
    1. Baltic Finnic languages (including Finnish) never came from the Volga basin along with ancestors of present-day Finns.
    2. Finnish I1 (around 30% of all Finns) has Germanic roots from the late Bronze Age or the early Iron Age.
    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

    Väinämöinen - R1a
    Lemminkäinen - I1
    Joukahainen - N

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen View Post
    Jman, I have already played throught this level, let's move onto the next level.
    Good luck then goof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Wait - I did not get from the text. I might misinterpret your translation so please check:
    1) In Lithuania they had moulding forms = in Lithuania they produced Malar axes, which were similar to Middle Sweddish Malar axes
    2) In Lithuania they (smiths?) used ceramic ware (together with moulding forms?) that arrived from Middle Sweden?
    1. Yes, both in Finland and in Lithuania. Apparently no signs of forms yet in Sweden. Somebody, correct me pls if I'm wrong. The Mälar Akozino axe type is anyways a clear Volga-Kama innovation, as even the early Swedish axes are based on Volga-Kama originals.
    2. No, the ware was just similar and it is not typical Swedish. It is so called textile impressed ware, mostly assumed to be related to Uralic speakers of the Bronze Age, if I'm right.

    Related to this: Hyllestedt mentioned recently for instance a possible loan word from uralic into IE, which is something along this line, hamara, "butt of an axe" -> hammer. Remains to be seen whether he'll get any support. Which I doubt. History is a very sensitive and by definition anacronistic issue.
    Last edited by Huck Finn; 2015-07-01 at 09:04. Reason: typo

  8. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    1. Yes, both in Finland and in Lithuania. Apparently no signs of forms yet in Sweden. Somebody, correct me pls if I'm wrong. The Mälar Akozino axe type is anyways a clear Volga-Kama innovation, as even the early Swedish axes are based on Volga-Kama originals.
    2. No, the ware was just similar and it is not typical Swedish. It is so called textile impressed ware, mostly assumed to be related to Uralic speakers of the Bronze Age, if I'm right.
    Ok, so those Uralic smiths worked in Lithuania and Finnland but only traded their axes to Middle Sweden?
    So far it makes sense. Also according to Gimbutas about these days East Balts got their own local metallurgy which was Uralic not Central Euro influenced. Latvian "veseris" might be relict from those folk. Although Lithuanians seem not to have their metallurgy dictionary of Uralic descent...

    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Related to this: Hyllestedt mentioned recently for instance a possible loan word from uralic into IE, which is something along this line, hamara, "butt of an axe" -> hammer. Remains to be seen whether he'll get any support. Which I doubt. History is a very sensitive and by definition anacronistic issue.
    But this is complete BS Sorry.
    First of all there is no Finnic etimology for hamara (it should be kirve + whatever means ass or backside in Finnish to think of Uralic etimology or descent of that word). Rather hamara comes from Old Norse hamarr. Just like Latvian āmurs.
    The mainstream theory for hammer is very strong:
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hammer#Etymology

    Also I believe those early Finnic smiths were skilled enough to use their vasaras and not the backside of axes in their work

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    But this is complete BS Sorry.
    Told you so.

    "...the word must be inherited in Balto-Fennic from at least the Fenno-Volgaic stage. It can be connected to Saami *sɤmērē ‘back/pole of an axe, back of knife’ (> N Saami šibmar, Lule Saami sjimēr, Skolt Saami šammer) and Mordvin *šuvV ‘back of a knife’ (Erzya čov, čovone, Moksha šov)..."

    BUT...

    "The Fenno-Volgaic form *šamara might, in turn, originally have been borrowed from some stage of Balto-Slavic. This would have been a language with regular satem reflex but the same metathesis or ablaut form as Slavic kamy, Slovincian kamor."

    http://forskning.ku.dk/find-en-forsk..._Hyllested.pdf

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    By the way is it really true that U106 sample from Southern Sweden (RISE98 - Lilla Beddinge, Sweden - 14C date 3736 BP, cal BC: -2275 to -2032) had no West Asian?

    When thrown into the clustering algorithm he clusters with modern Scandinavians from which he differs mostly by his total lack of West Asian while they have some (1.35-2.54%).

    In this regard he is similar to hunter-gatherers like Loschbour, La Brana or Motala, but he differes from them by having 7.64 of West Med which apper in ancient sample with Neolithic farmers.

    But he doesn't have East Med, while modern Scandinavians have small amounts of it (0,68-1,06%).

    If this lack of West Asian is real, what could it may potentially mean?

    Conclusion of the author of this observation:

    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach
    This makes me think this U106 guy may not have spoken a Germanic language or have had a Norse religion. I suspect those things probably came with the West Asian component. Although I think he may have had smaller parts of those things. But if that were the case, what Y-haplogroup did those conquering tribes have? Were they R1a, and then over time some leaders became U106 and I1?
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2015-07-01 at 14:17.

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    ^
    But he has K12b Gedrosia. 10% is like modern NW-Euro levels, the highest in Europe. Gedrosia was never found in any pre-bronze sample from europe, so also this result supports the link between R1b and Gedrosian. It is autosomally not that far from Yamna. Maybe west Russia or Baltics is the place of origin like MOESAN suggested. West Asian(Caucasus) is more complex with ENF being very important.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ngs-and-queens
    Sche innam me pepicke keseagu

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    Those Admixture results are garbage.

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    Does it tell us something about the route of U106 ancestors to Southern Sweden?





    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    Those Admixture results are garbage.
    Why?

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