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Thread: Genetic Heritage of the Balto-Slavic Speaking Populations (Kushniarevich, 2015)780 days old

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    We watched a entertaining Viking tv. series, here in North America. They never show the Vikings losing to Pomeranian Slavs/not once/that I can remember. Only winning in East Baltic Slavic region/maybe this was beginning of Eastern Slavs slave trade?. They don't show them in Sileisa or Moravia/Czech region either, I guess they could not even land there boats on shore?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    We watched a entertaining Viking tv. series, here in North America. They never show the Vikings losing to Pomeranian Slavs/not once/that I can remember. Only winning in East Baltic Slavic region/maybe this was beginning of Eastern Slavs slave trade?. They don't show them in Sileisa or Moravia/Czech region either, I guess they could not even land there boats on shore?

    I think you are treating this too personally. But if you insist, here you are:



    This movie was based on this XIX century novel.
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2017-03-20 at 20:28.

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    The Hollywood trends are just it, trends, beside anti-slavic sentiment is strong in Western world, this specific patronising and idiotic belief that Slavs have been peaceful peasants.

    As part of an international team of researchers, archaeologists at Aarhus University can reveal that a large part of Harold Bluetooth’s Viking army consisted of foreigners – possibly from Poland.
    Last edited by Pioterus; 2017-03-20 at 21:03.
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski
    Świat się zmienia, słońce zachodzi, a wódka się kończy [The world is changing, sun is setting and we're running out of Vodka.]
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    I think you are treating this too personally. But if you insist, here you are:
    This movie was based on this XIX century novel.

    If Piasts/Polanie+ Pomeranian/slav tribes were good and capable warriors/rulers of Poland/Slavs[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polans_(western)]; how come they did not liberate the Eastern Slavs, who suffered under the yoke of oppression? Then go on to wipe out the Norse men in their home countries? Just curious, really not well informed on this early part of Polish/Polanie history?



    Last edited by Silesian; 2017-03-20 at 21:41.

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    Might be of interest as to how skewed has been the written history of Poland:

    This paragraph might fairly be read to suggest that Davies believes that history is less about truth than about what’s “good enough” for a given people – a curious approach to the subject area – one more fitting a political agitator than a serious scholar. Moreover, his premise of a population in a state of “flux” is itself full of half-truths:

    it is not clear that there was a Bohemia before the Czechs. Put differently, we do not know who the “mysterious” Boii were. There is nothing to suggest that they could not have been the ancestors of the Czechs. There is further precious little to suggest what happened to the Boii after the Marcomanni invaded their territories. Even if one were to assume a Czech migration into Bohemia, there is nothing to suggests that this could not have been a back-migration after the Marcomanni (whoever they were) departed these lands.
    The same more or less holds true of the Russians – while the name Rus is new, similar names were in use in the Ukraine long before the Varangians appeared on the scene (take the Roxoalani as just one example).
    Even in the case of England modern DNA studies suggest that the majority of the (white obviously) population derives its roots from pre-6th century inhabitants of the same area.
    Not to mention that the “state of flux” itself has been challenged – no less than by Davies’ fellow historical travelers – who, as it’s become fashionable, have downplayed the role of the Voelkerwanderung (indeed most of the so-called “Leftist” theories of national origins if put together next to each other fail in their inconsistency – about the only thing that unites them is a visceral desire to vanquish “national myths”);
    What else? First of all, the statement that there was no Poland before the Poles is, of course, a banal truism used as a rhetorical device. Why rhetoric has to be employed by a historian is itself curious but, be that as it may, the next question concerns Davies’ real purpose, namely, the implication that there were people in “Poland” before the ancestors of the Poles. From the context it is clear that he believes that the Slavs had waltzed into the area at some point around the 7th-8th centuries. Where from?
    +

    Davies who just above was willing to mock people positing “a uniquely tenacious group of Protoslavs” living in Poland throughout the ages, then proceeds to posit a uniquely tenacious group of Protoslavs living North of the Carpathians…

    They are even given a dating of 5th century B.C. (!). From their Protoslavonic dwellings Davies’ Protoslavs witness the Scythians, the Sarmatians, the Goths, the Gepids, the Huns and the Avars passing by on their way to exploits elsewhere – all while “tenaciously” clinging to their North-Carpathian dwellings from which the same Scythians, Sarmatians, Goths, Gepids, Huns and Avars are either unable or unwilling to dislodge Davies’ proto-Slavs….
    All the while:

    Northern Europe in the Bronze Age was long dismissed as a backwater, overshadowed by more sophisticated civilizations in the Near East and Greece. Bronze itself, created in the Near East around 3200 B.C.E., took 1000 years to arrive here. But Tollense’s scale suggests more organization—and more violence—than once thought. “We had considered scenarios of raids, with small groups of young men killing and stealing food, but to imagine such a big battle with thousands of people is very surprising,”
    +

    .Historical accounts from the Near East and Greece described epic battles, but few artifacts remained to corroborate these boastful accounts. “Even in Egypt, despite hearing many tales of war, we never find such substantial archaeological evidence of its participants and victims,”
    +
    Genetic analysis is just beginning, but so far it supports the notion of far-flung origins. DNA from teeth suggests some warriors are related to modern southern Europeans and others to people living in modern-day Poland and Scandinavia. “This is not a bunch of local idiots,” says University of Mainz geneticist Joachim Burger. “It’s a highly diverse population.”
    Battle at the bridge

    +

    The Nebra sky disk features the oldest concrete depiction of the cosmos worldwide. In June 2013 it was included in the UNESCO Memory of the World Register and termed "one of the most important archaeological finds of the twentieth century."[1]
    +

    The disk is attributed to a site near Nebra, Saxony-Anhalt, in Germany, and associatively dated to c. 1600 BC. It has been associated with the Bronze Age Unetice culture.
    So, not only the Mighty Sumer has to thank these pesky Bronze Age aR1an Northerners for Astronomy but also for a wheel (this time a more I2a's deed possibly, anyway, non-IE farmers I suppose).
    Last edited by Pioterus; 2017-03-20 at 22:36.
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski
    Świat się zmienia, słońce zachodzi, a wódka się kończy [The world is changing, sun is setting and we're running out of Vodka.]
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    However many of my kin-R1b-BY593[the few that survived] are in and around some of the oldest areas of what is considered the oldest areas of Poland and or Moravia[aka Czech]areas with a very high concentration of R1a.
    or simply Moravia,[2][3][4] was the first major state that was predominantly Slavonic to emerge in the area of Central Europe.[5] I

    My sister R1b branch is found in Ossestians[Eastern Iranian/Pashtun/Alan ] and even higher up in the Sarmatian that was found beside the Sintashta settlements.
    Quote Originally Posted by YFull
    R-V2986PH1723/BY593/V2986 * Y11811 * Y14079+19 SNPsformed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 1600 ybp
    R1b-BY593 TMRCA seems close to the time of the Slavic expansion.

    Do you have any map of the modern distribution of R1b-BY593?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    If Piasts/Polanie+ Pomeranian/slav tribes were good and capable warriors/rulers of Poland/Slavs[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polans_(western)]; how come they did not liberate the Eastern Slavs, who suffered under the yoke of oppression? Then go on to wipe out the Norse men in their home countries? Just curious, really not well informed on this early part of Polish/Polanie history?
    I think you should start your own thread about the Vikings unless you are able to show that Vikings are relevant to the genetic heritage of the Balto-Slavic populations what is the topic of this thread.

    But answering your question: 1) people usually don't fight to liberate someone else, but for vital economic resources like control of the trade routes or access to valuable commodities. 2) I think Vikings had an edge - seaworthy ships with which they controlled the sea and large river trade routes; 3) Wends were Pagans, Poles were Catholic and Eastern Slavs were Orthodox and religious divisions often matter.
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2017-03-21 at 12:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    If Piasts/Polanie+ Pomeranian/slav tribes were good and capable warriors/rulers of Poland/Slavs[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polans_(western)]; how come they did not liberate the Eastern Slavs, who suffered under the yoke of oppression? Then go on to wipe out the Norse men in their home countries? Just curious, really not well informed on this early part of Polish/Polanie history?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    (...)
    But answering your question: 1) people usually don't fight to liberate someone else, but for vital economic resources like control of the trade routes or access to valuable resources. 2) I think Vikings had an edge - seaworthy ships with which they controlled the sea and large river trade routes; 3) Wends were Pagans, Poles were Catholic and Eastern Slavs were Orthodox and religious divisions often matter.
    Because what Woj wrote was true until recent times - even to the point of relative lack of intermixing between Orthodox Boyars and Catholic Szlachta in Commonwealth, even though they both have been citizens of same, powerful Republic but also because of this:

    Ibrahim ibn Jakub (ur. ok. 912, zm. po 966) – Żyd sefardyjski (hiszpański), poseł kalifa Kordoby, kronikarz, podróżnik i kupiec.

    Kraje Słowian ciągną się nieprzerwanie od Morza Syryjskiego (Śródziemnego) po Ocean ku północy (...) Królowie ich są obecnie czterej: król Bułgarów (Piotr I) i Bojeslaw (Bolesław I Srogi), król Pragi i Krakowa, i Mesko (Mieszko I), król Północy, i Nakon (książę Obodrytów) na końcu Zachodu. (...)
    Na ogół biorąc, to Słowianie są skorzy do zaczepki i gwałtowni, i gdyby nie ich niezgoda (...) żaden lud nie zdołałby im sprostać w sile. (...) Oddają się ze szczególną gorliwością rolnictwu. (...) Handel ich dociera lądem i morzem do Rusów i do Konstantynopola.
    Kobiety ich, kiedy wyjdą za mąż, nie popełniają cudzołóstwa; ale panna, kiedy pokocha jakiego mężczyznę, udaje się do niego i zaspokaja u niego swoją żądzę. A kiedy małżonek poślubi dziewczynę i znajdzie ją dziewicą, mówi do niej: „gdyby było w tobie coś dobrego, byliby cię pożądali mężczyźni i z pewnością byłabyś sobie wybrała kogoś, kto by wziął twoje dziewictwo”. Potem ją odsyła i uwalnia się od niej.
    Kraje Słowian są najzimniejsze z wszystkich krajów. Najtęższy mróz bywa u nich, gdy noce są księżycowe, a dnie pogodne (...). A gdy ludzie wydychają powietrze, tworzą się na ich brodach powłoki z lodu niby ze szkła.(...)
    Źródło: Norman Davies, Europa, Kraków 2000, przeł.T. Kowalski, Relacja Ibrahima ibn Jakuba z podróży do krajów słowiańskich w przekładzie Al-Bekriego.
    Translation of bolded part (Google Translate + myself):

    In general, Slavs are skilful and violent, and if not for their discord (...) no people would match them in power. (...)
    In regards to Vikings trying to penetrate into Pomerania (Slavic Baltic Shores) and potential "union of Western Slavs":

    Posiadają oni potężne miasto nad oceanem mające dwanaście bram. Ma ono przystań do której używają przepołowionych pni. Wojują oni z Mieszkiem, a ich siła bojowa jest wielka. Nie mają króla i nie dają się prowadzić jednemu władcy, a sprawującymi władzę wśród nich są ich starsi...
    Opis: o Wolinie.
    Translation (just GT, quite close this time)

    They have a mighty city on the ocean with twelve gates. It has a dock to which they use trunks. They are fighting with Mieszko, and their fighting power is great. They have no king and can not be led by one ruler, and the rulers among them are their elders ...
    SOURCE - Ibrahim Ibn Yakub
    Last edited by Pioterus; 2017-03-21 at 11:16.
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski
    Świat się zmienia, słońce zachodzi, a wódka się kończy [The world is changing, sun is setting and we're running out of Vodka.]
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski

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    A bit OT but of importance, here's where the town of Altentreptow lies. The Tollense Bronze Age battlefield lies just to the North of this town, here's where Vineta probably lied:



    This all is just to show that Pomerania/ Oder River mouth has been a vital point since at least Bronze Age and lots of blood has been spilled for the control of a trade route which ends/ begins there while genetics shows that all this time there is a genetic continuity in the general region. Not discussing here Slavic continuity as Slavs could be a phenomen of some "intra-R1a" expansion followed by founder effect of just one of R1a subclades (M458?) and closely followed by I2a's but lacking any major autosomal shift.

    EDIT: Was the tin deposits along Oder river of any importance here?

    Last edited by Pioterus; 2017-03-21 at 11:44.
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski
    Świat się zmienia, słońce zachodzi, a wódka się kończy [The world is changing, sun is setting and we're running out of Vodka.]
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    If one wanted to travel through the region of Europe with more than 60% of R1a1 one would have to take this route:

    It seems that Prague culture tried to avoid crossing this AR1an route:







    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2017-03-22 at 15:20.

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