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Thread: Slavic Perkunas and Quercus1164 days old

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    Default Slavic Perkunas and Quercus

    Ladies and gentlemen, here is the mighty Slavic Perkunas:



    And his tree:



    Picea - świerk in Polish

    swerk - kwerk

    *świerkus - quercus?

    Now it makes sense to connect this tree with the mountains.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkwunos
    The original meaning of this u-stem *perkwu- appears to be concept of an oak, a coniferous forest, a mountain forest, or a wooded mountain:
    And now Germanic name for oak:

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Recon...-Germanic/aiks
    Old English: āc, ǣc
    Middle English: ak, ake, ook
    Scots: ake, aik
    English: oak
    Old Frisian: ēk
    North Frisian: ik
    Saterland Frisian: Eeke
    West Frisian: iik
    Old Saxon: ēk
    Middle Low German: ēke, eke
    German Low German: Eek
    Low German: Eek
    Old Dutch: *eik, *ēk
    Middle Dutch: eic, eec
    Dutch: eik, eek
    Afrikaans: eik
    Old High German: eih
    Middle High German: eich
    Cimbrian: àicha
    German: Eiche
    Luxembourgish: Eech
    Vilamovian: aach
    Old Norse: eik
    Icelandic: eik
    Faroese: eik
    Norwegian: eik
    Old Swedish: ēk
    Swedish: ek
    Danish: eg
    Which looks like Belarusian/Russian name for... yes, Picea:

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%91%D0%BB%D0%BA%D0%B0
    Belarusian ёлка • ‎(jólka)
    Russian IPA(key): [ˈjɵlkə] ёлка • ‎(jólka) f inan ‎(genitive ёлки, nominative plural ёлки)
    Diminutive of ель ‎(jelʹ): spruce, spruce tree
    So... "quercus" and "oak' refer to Picea and mountain trees, not to dąb (Quercus) from dąbrowa - dhanv rava - causing to run of flow + thunder.

    Yet, if this swerk-kwerk or jólk-oak grows on a top of the hill/mountain, it will be hit by the thunder as well.

    It looks like reconstruction *perkṷu- "oak-tree" for quercus is not valid, because we have satem swerk. What a surprise.

    Maybe even we have mountains named after quercunas... Karkonosze - Querconos? Świerkonos?

    Typical view - rocks and świerks:




    In Czech świerk is smrek... there is even a mountain called Smrek.

    And Lugi Buri - Ludzie Burzy - People of Thunderstorms?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buri_tribe
    Ptolemy, however, mentions the Lougoi Bouroi (transliterated by the scholars into Latin Lugi Buri) dwelling in what is today southern Poland between the Elbe, the modern Sudetes, and the upper Vistula.
    Karkonosze are part of the Sudetes.


    And now parkan - high, tight fence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Indo-European and the Indo-Europeans: A Reconstruction and Historical Analysis of a Proto-Language and Proto-Culture. Part I: The Text. Part II: Bibliography, Indexes
    Hittite again:
    http://www.sonic.net/~dweeks/work/sa...ssertation.pdf
    Another causative (factitive) is parkanu-, fr. parku- high‘ (12.31).
    Parkan is a high fence (also a rampart). And fence is a cliff.. sort of.
    So maybe it was originally Parkonos not Karkonos?

    Karkonosze mountains look like a one big wall/rampart/parkan from both sides:





    Thor (thunder) - son of Odin (first, highest) and Fjörgyn (earth, forest)
    Dardanus - son of Zeus and Electra, daughter of Atlas
    Perun (thunder) - son of Perkunas (highest) and Przeginia (oak grove)?

    Spruce - tree of the father - mountain, oak - tree of the mother - forest?

    It looks like someone messed up Przeginia (forest, generator, prajana) with Perkunas (parkan, high, cliff, mountains) and oak (świerk-querc, jólk-oak) witht spruce.
    Last edited by Panthalika; 2016-05-14 at 18:40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Panthalika View Post
    It looks like someone messed up Przeginia (forest, generator, parjana) with Perkunas (parkan, high, cliff, mountains) and oak (świerk-querc, jólk-oak) witht spruce.

    Slavs had tabu for many object and animals including bear, fish, oak. Hence, dub (оак) and miadzviedź (bear , honey-eater). Common European *ber remains in a word such as remains in word such are ber-loga - lair of bear. The fact that Slavs had tabu for common European name of oak shows that the tree was sacral.

    The archaic form of Slavic Perun is *pergynja (Polish Przeginia) derived from *perg. So Slavic *per-g- and Baltic *per-k- are derived from *per(to strike) by way of adding suffixes . Etymology of Perkunas/Perkons and Slavic Perun is a thunder-striker. But some suggested that Baltic Perkunas is derived from *perkuu (oak)

    Proto Slavic *рьrаti - to strike
    Lithuanian - per̃ti, periù - to strike
    Latvian - pḕrt, реru - to strike

    In Baltic and Belarusian mythologies Perun/Perkunas associated with stones, oaks and mountains. According to the Tale of Bygone Years Perun was put on the hill near oak- tree in Kiev's pantheon. There are many examples and tales where Perun and Perkunas were placed on hills near oak trees.
    Last edited by Rugevit; 2016-05-14 at 18:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugevit View Post
    The archaic form of Slavic Perun is *pergynja (Polish Przeginia) derived from *perg.
    Przeginia comes from "pre" not "per". Like in English "pregnant", probably it's the same word.

    First of all... it's not about thunders. Thunders are cool, so they dominated the myths, legends, books, films. But if a thunder doesn't kill you or burn your house, then it doesn't have any impact on your life.

    Unlike rain.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parjanya
    Parjanya (Sanskrit: parjánya) is according to Vedic mythology, a deity of rain, the one who fertilizes the earth.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra
    Indra (/ˈɪndrə/, Sanskrit: इन्द्र) is the leader of the Devas and the lord of Svargaloka or a level of Heaven in Hinduism. He is the deva of rain and thunderstorms.
    The Sangam literature of Tamil mentioned,Indhira Vizha(festival for Indira), the festival for want of rain

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodola
    According to some interpretations, Dodola is a Slavic goddess of rain,[1] and the wife of the supreme god Perun (who is the god of thunder). Slavs believed that when Dodola milks her heavenly cows, the clouds, it rains on earth. Each spring Dodola is said to fly over woods and fields, and spread vernal greenery, decorating the trees with blossoms.[citation needed]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per%C3%ABndi
    Perëndi is an old Illyrian word for God and the sky, especially invoked in incantations and songs praying for rain.[1] He was also an Illyrian god of thunder or storm-god.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perk%C5%ABnas
    Perkūnas is the god of lightning and thunder and storms. In a triad of gods Perkūnas symbolizes the creative forces (including vegetative), courage, success, the top of the world, the sky, rain, thunder, heavenly fire (lightning) and celestial elements, while Patrimpas, is involved with the ground, crops, and cereals and Velnias/Patulas, with hell, and death.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor
    Many scholars have noted the association of Thor with fertility, particularly in later folklore and in the reflex of him represented by the Sami Hora galles ("Good-man Thor"). For Dumézil, this is the preservation by peasants of only the side-effect of the god's atmospheric battles: the fertilizing rain.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fj%C3%..._Fj%C3%B6rgynn
    In Norse mythology, the feminine Fjörgyn (Old Norse "earth"[1]) is described as the mother of the god Thor, son of Odin

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BDemyna
    Žemyna (derived from žemė – earth) is the goddess of the earth in Lithuanian religion. She is usually regarded as mother goddess and one of the chief Lithuanian gods similar to Latvian Zemes māte. Žemyna personifies the fertile earth and nourishes all life on earth, human, plant, and animal.

    The goddess is said to be married to either Perkūnas (thunder god) or Praamžius (manifestation of chief heavenly god Dievas). Thus the couple formed the typical Indo-European pair of mother-earth and father-sky.[4] It was believed that the earth needs to be fertilized by the heavens (rain and thunder). Thus it was prohibited to plow or sow before the first thunder as the earth would be barren.[3]
    [table="width:250, align: left"]
    [tr]
    [td]Father-sky[/td]
    [td]Mother-earth[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]Perkūnas[/td]
    [td]Žemyna[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]Odin[/td]
    [td]Fjörgyn[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]Perun[/td]
    [td]Przeginia[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]parjanya[/td]
    [td]prajana[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]

    [table="width: 700, align: left"]
    [tr]
    [td]
    Perun/Perkunas/Odin:

    पर्जन्य parjanya m. raincloud
    पर्जन्य parjanya m. rain
    पर्जन्य parjanya m. cloud
    पर्जन्य parjanya m. rain personified or the god of rain
    पर्जन्य parjanya m. rain-cloud
    जन्य janya adj. born or arising or produced from
    जन्य janya adj. born
    जन्य janya adj. produced
    जन्य janya m. father
    [/td]
    [td]
    Przeginia/Žemyna/Fjörgyn:

    प्रजाना prajAnA f. place of bringing forth
    प्रजन prajana m. progenitor
    प्रजन prajana m. bearing
    प्रजन prajana m. begetting
    प्रजन prajana m. impregnation
    प्रजन prajana m. bringing forth
    प्रजन prajana m. one who begets
    प्रजन prajana m. generation
    प्रजन prajana m. generator
    जन jana adj. generating
    जान jAna n. birth
    जान jAna n. birth place
    जान jAna n. origin
    [/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]

    You need the rain to have a good crops and to have plenty of grass for your cattle.

    You see (and hear) the thunders before the rain.
    Then the rain comes and vegetation explodes.

    Now you know that if you need the rain, you need to attract the thunder.

    Then you find out that thunders don't strike randomly. Thunders hit over and over again the old oak nearby your house, the protruding rock in your field, the high lone spruce, tip of a mountain or hill.

    Now you know that if you need the thunder, you need to appease to this oak, rock, spruce or mountain.

    You need to appease to Przeginia to generate Perun - a connection between earth and sky.
    You need a connection between earth and sky to bring the rain from the clouds, from the god.

    This is the wisdom and a starting point of PIE religion.
    Everything else - Thor's hammer, chariots, battles - is a "pure Hollywood".

    There is a possibility that Perun is not Perkunas, but his (or some other deity) son, akin to Thor. He seems to be connected only to thunderbolts (at least in Wikipedia there is not a word about rain).

    If so, then we have our own Trimurti in which Perun fulfils the role of a messenger that connects earth with the sky. And his name is:

    पारण pAraNa adj. bringing over
    पारण pAraNa adj. delivering
    पारण pAraNa m. could
    पारण pAraNa n. accomplishing
    पारण pAraNa n. fulfilling
    पारण pAraNa n. going through
    पारण pAraNa n. carrying through

    Mother, Father and Son.
    You pray to the Mother, then she talks with her Son and then the Son mediates between you and the Father in the sky.

    I think I heard that somewhere.

    And then bad people turned against the Son and he died on a lightning rod.


    Taranis also seems to be disconnected from the rain and fertility.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taranis

    The reconstructed Proto-Celtic form of the name is *Toranos "thunder".[5] In present day Welsh taranu and taran means 'to thunder' and 'thunder' (taraniñ and taran in Breton).

    Taranis, as a personification of thunder, is often identified with similar deities found in other Indo-European pantheons. Of these, Old Norse Þórr, Anglo-Saxon Þunor, Old High German Donar—all from Proto-Germanic *þunraz (earlier *þunaraz)—and the Hittite theonym Tarhun (see Teshub) contain a comparable *torun- element. The Thracian deity names Zbel-thurdos, Zbel-Thiurdos also contain this element (Thracian thurd(a), "push, crash down"). The name of the Sami thunder god Horagalles derives from Thor's
    So he don't throw the thunders, he is the thunder. Just like Perun - piorun.

    And Taranis name is:

    तरण taraNa m. heaven
    तरण taraNa n. crossing over
    तारण tAraNa n. safe passage
    तारण tAraNa n. transport
    तरण taraNa n. overcoming
    तरण taraNa n. carrying over
    तरण taraNa n. passing
    तारण tAraNa n. crossing
    तारण tAraNa n. carrying across

    So it looks like Taranis and Perun are both the messengers.
    Last edited by Panthalika; 2016-05-14 at 22:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Panthalika View Post
    There is a possibility that Perun is not Perkunas, but his (or some other deity) son

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svarga
    In Hinduism, Svarga (or Swarga) (Sanskrit: स्वर्ग), also known as Swarga Loka, is any of the eight loka or planes in Hindu cosmology

    Svarga is presided over by Indra, the leader of the devas.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svarog
    Svarog (Old Church Slavonic: Сваро́гъ, Russian: Сварог, Polish: Swaróg, Serbian: Сварог, Ukrainian: Сварог) is a Slavic deity known primarily from the Hypatian Codex, a Slavic translation of the Chronicle of John Malalas. Svarog is there identified with Hephaestus, the god of the blacksmith in ancient Greek religion, and as the father of Dažbog, a Slavic solar deity. On the basis of this text, some researchers conclude that Svarog is the Slavic god of celestial fire and of blacksmithing.
    Blacksmithing - doesn't this have something in common with hitting things with a big hammer and with sparks flying everywhere?

    Swaróg - Swarga - swarg- swerk - świerk
    Swaróg - Swarga - swarg- swerk - kwerk - Querqus

    Is the spruce (świerk - sverg) a tree of Svarog?
    Is Perun (lightning) a son of Svarog (a spark from under Svarogs hammer)?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triglav_%28mythology%29
    Triglav is alegedly depicted as representation of three major Slavic gods that vary from one Slavic tribe to others that serve as the representatives of the above mentioned realms. An early variation included Svarog, Perun, and Dazhbog.
    https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swar%C3%B3g
    tabuizowane formy imienia bóstwa obecne w takich nazwach miejscowych jak Twarożna Góra w Polsce czy Tvarog - ruiny zamku w Dobrovej w Styrii.

    taboo forms of the name of this deity exists in names such as Twarożna Góra in Poland or Tvarog - remains of a castle in Dobrova in Styria
    Thats why we have świerk, smrk, smreka, ёлкі (ёlka) and not svarg.

    Tvarog - Svarog in Dobrova (dhanv rava) - this is not a coincidence.
    Twarożna Góra - Tvarogs Mountain - this is also not a coincidence.

    Both Dobrova (oak grove) and mountain are thunder generators - Przeginia.

    And do you know what is the best part?

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Quark#German
    quark (cheese)
    From late Middle High German twarc, from a West Slavic language (compare Polish twaróg), from Proto-Slavic *tvarogъ.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark_%28dairy_product%29
    also spelled quarc, twarc, zwarg, Quarck, dwarg, quargel, Danish kvark, Norwegian and Swedish kvarg, Dutch kwark
    Quercus could come from the taboo form Tvarg (similar sound shifts happened with a cheese in German).

    Now I'm thinking if the cheese (tvarog) can have something in common with Svarog.

    Cheese making in Poland in the 6th millennium BC and proto-Indo-European homeland

    *sъvariti – kuć
    kuć, kuje - forge, hammer, slosh
    Kujawy - Kuyavia


    Unfortunately, the Proto-Indo-Iranians did not have a good opinion about Kuyavia.
    कुयव kuyava adj. causing a bad harvest
    कुयव kuyava n. bad harvest
    What a shame.
    Last edited by Panthalika; 2016-05-15 at 05:14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Panthalika View Post
    Now I'm thinking if the cheese (tvarog) can have something in common with Svarog.
    To make a twaróg you need to slowly heat the milk, preferably with the celestial fire (Svarog), until the milk zwarzy się.

    zwarzone - curdled (?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Panthalika View Post
    Przeginia comes from "pre" not "per". Like in English "pregnant", probably it's the same word.

    First of all... it's not about thunders. Thunders are cool, so they dominated the myths, legends, books, films. But if a thunder doesn't kill you or burn your house, then it doesn't have any impact on your life.
    Roman Jakobson was a Russian–American linguist and literary theorist. Jakobson was among the most influential linguists of the century.

    According to him common Slavic *pergynja is related to OCS пръгыня, Polish Przeginia and Old Ruthenian перегыня. . See scanned text below.

    The difference seems to be the absence of 'polnoglasie' in west Slavic languages. Compare Polish brzeg and east Slavic bereg

    Most linguists and ethnographers state that Slavic Perun and Baltic Perkunas/Perkons are Gods of thunder evident from tales and songs recorded in chronicles and ethnographers of 19th-20th centuries. Somewhere on this forum I posted ancient Belarusian folk song about Piarun, which is about thunder and rain.

    V. V. Ivanov - another known linguist - writes in scholarly article on etymology of God of Thunder in Baltic and Slavic mythologies

    Page 101 : http://www.inslav.ru/images/stories/...%281958%29.pdf


    Last edited by Rugevit; 2016-05-15 at 10:01.

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    In studying pagan dieties one does not look at etymology only as there numerous possibilities of phonetic shifts. Scholars also look at semantics and morphology of the dieties by studying old beliefs, legends, tales, folk songs, historic records.

    Etymologically, semantically and morphologically Slavic Perun/Piarun and Baltic Perkunas/Perkons/Perkunis is essentially the same deity central to Slavic and Baltic pantheons. The deity is God of Thunder also linked to oak tree and hills. In Baltic and Belarusian mythologies also linked to stones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugevit View Post
    Jakobson was among the most influential linguists of the century.

    According to him common Slavic *pergynja is related to OCS пръгыня, Polish Przeginia and Old Ruthenian перегыня. .

    The difference seems to be the absence of 'polnoglasie' in west Slavic languages. Compare Polish brzeg and east Slavic bereg
    So Jakobson shouldn't be so influential anymore.

    These words aren't "related". This is one and the same word.

    Maybe this vowel is absent. Or maybe it was not dropped in Polish but added in East Slavic?

    We have pre and many pere, yet the "reconstruction" is *pergynja. Magic?

    Oh, it's not magic, he took the wrong word from Sanskrit and he tries to make parjanya from przeginia. This is how the "reconstructions" work. Or rather don't work at all.

    Do you see all these asterisks? These are not real words.

    And I showed you real word from Sanskrit. Prajana gives birth and parjanya is born like Przeginia gives birth to the Perun. That's the difference. Probably later attention shifted to the thunders and things mixed up, but if someone is talking about rocks, mountains or trees (not only oaks!), he's talking about Przeginia not Perun. In the second post I showed step by step how this works and it just can't be simpler. And simple answer is the best answer.

    One more thing.

    Przeginie (rocks, mountains, spruces, oaks) were sacred places not only because of thunder-god and anticipated rain. It's just simply stupid to sit on such sacred rock or wander in the sacred oak grove during the thunderstorm.

    Isn't this all simple and practical knowledge?
    Last edited by Panthalika; 2016-05-15 at 16:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Panthalika View Post
    So Jakobson shouldn't be so influential anymore.

    These words aren't "related". This is one and the same word.

    Maybe this vowel is absent. Or maybe it was not dropped in Polish but added in East Slavic?

    We have pre and many pere, yet the "reconstruction" is *pergynja. Magic?

    Oh, it's not magic, he took the wrong word from Sanskrit and he tries to make parjanya from przeginia. This is how the "reconstructions" work. Or rather don't work at all.

    Do you see all these asterisks? These are not real words.
    Jackobson is not the only one linking those two. I see the asterisk in front of reconstructed word. I mentioned linguistic feature known as polnoglasie that Polish language does not have anymore giving a good example brzeg and east Slavic bereg analogous to Polish przeginia and Old Ruthenian peregynia (real word); Polish darń and 'polnoglasie' in east Slavic deren , Polish czerw and old Ruthenian cherev' and many other examples.

    And I showed you real word from Sanskrit. Prajana gives birth and parjanya is born like Przeginia gives birth to the Perun. That's the difference. Probably later attention shifted to the thunders and things mixed up, but if someone is talking about rocks, mountains or trees (not only oaks!), he's talking about Przeginia not Perun. In the second post I showed step by step how this works and it just can't be simpler. And simple answer is the best answer.
    That's your own speculations about things getting mixed up and shifted. There are tales, legends, folk-songs, beliefs, historic records as well as scholar published articles stating Perun and Perkunas are essentially the same deity.

    Przeginie (rocks, mountains, spruces, oaks) were sacred places not only because of thunder-god and anticipated rain. It's just simply stupid to sit on such sacred rock or wander in the sacred oak grove during the thunderstorm.
    It's linked to the stones such as Perun/Perkunas throwing stony arrows or Perun/Perkunas targeting stones in many tales, legends and songs
    Last edited by Rugevit; 2016-05-15 at 16:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugevit View Post
    Jackobson is not the only one linking those two. I see the asterisk in front of reconstructed word. I mentioned linguistic feature known as polnoglasie that Polish language does not have
    Sanskrit also doesn't have polnoglasie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rugevit View Post
    That's your own speculations about things getting mixed up and shifted. There are tales, legends, folk-songs, beliefs, historic records as well as scholar published articles stating Perun and Perkunas are essentially the same deity.
    Forget about tales for a moment and start with basic physics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rugevit View Post
    It's linked to the stones such as Perun/Perkunas throwing stony arrows or Perun/Perkunas targeting stones in many tales, legends and songs
    Stone = attracting thunder strikes = Przeginia. So yes, Perun/Perkunas is linked to Przeginia.

    "targeting stones" - basic physics again.

    " throwing stony arrows " - you see that thunder struck something. You run to your field to check what happened and what you'll find? Probably a stone (Przeginia - generator). Oh, it must be the stone arrow from the sky!

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