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Thread: Epigravettian culture1217 days old

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    The Gravettian / Epigravettian phenomenon is a complex biocultural system of anatomically modern humans to cold and arid glacial conditions and the evidence of their remarkable adaptive flexibility. Gravette Points are generally made from slender and narrow blades (“Gravettes”) or bladelets (“Microgravettes”). These points are characterized by a straight or slightly curved blunted back , which is formed by very abrupt retouches. Many Gravettes have additional retouches on the non-blunted edge, either near the point or near the base.

    Microgravette points are by far the most common lithic projectile points in the European Upper Paleolithic, both in time and space. They are a constitutive part of Gravettian industries from Iberia to the Urals and of the Epigravettian of South and Eastern Europe. Microgravettes in Europe are more or less continuously present over a time interval of roughly 20k.a. Isolated findings occur during the Levantine Epipaleolithic and the Epipaleolithic of the Maghreb.
    "Microgravettes: the most successful lithic projectile points of the Paleolithic Old World"

    - - - Updated - - -

    From the Russian Plain, the following sites date from the Epigravettian: Mezin, which is well known
    for its round mammoth bone dwelling; Mezherich where four mammoth bone dwellings are present (Pidoplichko, 1998; Shovkopljas, 1965; Soffer, 1985; Sinitsyn et al., 1997; Soffer et al., 1997) and Eliseevich, where there are remains of at least eight mammoth bone structures. Eliseevich delivered the oldest dogs known with an age of c. 13,900 BP (Sablin and Khlopachev, 2002, 2003).
    "Possible evidence of mammoth hunting during the Epigravettian at Yudinovo, Russian Plain", Mietje Germonpré et al.

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    Lithic assemblages from two main occupational phases of the Kraków-Spadzista B+B 1 are discussed in this paper, including assemblages from the Gravettian layer 6 and the Epigravettian layer 5.
    "The Gravettian and Epigravettian lithic assemblages from Kraków-Spadzista B+B 1: dynamic approach to the technology", J. Wilczyński



    So to conclude this quick blitz through internet, there were Epi-Gravettian sites from Russia through Ukraine, Caucasus, Anatolia, South-Eastern Europe, Italy to Central Europe.

    So far I have no idea where this tradition started and where it survived the longest.

    I found intriguing that this archeological culture is dated to the period 24000-10000 ybp very similar to the YFull dates of:

    R1b "formed 22800 ybp, TMRCA 19700 ybp",

    and several major R1b subclades:

    R-L278 "formed 19700 ybp, TMRCA 17200 ybp",

    R-L389 "formed 17200 ybp, TMRCA 16800 ybp",

    R-P297 "formed 16800 ybp, TMRCA 13500 ybp"

    and finally:

    R-M269 "formed 13500 ybp, TMRCA 6400 ybp"


    So I guess that if R1b was found in Epigravetian context in Italy then it is quite possible that it could be found in the future in any of the above mentioned regions (another candidate is of course J2 also found in a sample classified as Epigravettian).
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2016-05-19 at 18:40.

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    Other early Neolithic cultures can be found in Ukraine and Southern Russia, where the epi-Gravettian locals assimilated cultural influxes from beyond the Caucasus (culture of Dniepr-Don and related)
    Quote Originally Posted by Maju
    In any case the European influence in Iran/Kurdistan/Iraq dates from the Epipaleolithic, when offshots of Eastern European Epigravettian moved into the Caucasus and the Zagros, areas probably deserted before (comparable to SW European re-colonization of Central Europe or Central European colonization of Northern Europe).
    This is intriguing. The map below was - I guess - made by Maju. It describes Neolithic Jarmo culture as Gravetian derived:



    And here we read that in the Jarmo village in Kurdistan oldest ever found example of metallurgy was found:

    Neolithic Jarmo, settled around 7000 BC. 6750 - Jarmo village, on a tributary of the Lesser Zab river in foothills of Iraqi Kurdistan: copper items, as well as a single bead made of smelted lead, oldest metallurgy in Old World. (Kurdistan mountains teem with ore deposits.)
    Also:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    Jarmo is one of the oldest sites at which pottery has been found, appearing in the most recent levels of excavation, which dates it to the 7th millennium BC.

    I wonder if Maju's labeling of Jarmo Culture as Gravettian-derived makes any sense? If it did it would instantly solve a lot of riddles.


    See also here: "eastern refugia - did R1 live in any of these areas?"

    Most basal R1b is found stone's throw from Jarmo:

    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2016-05-20 at 14:18.

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    About Jarmo:

    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist
    These similarities between ancient Near Eastern farmers and modern Europeans reminds me of the old paper on the dentition of the first agriculturists (Jarmo, Iraq):

    "Certain Arab groups are known to have a marked and most unexpected reduction in the size of the metacone of the maxillary second molars as well as distinctive inter-tooth-group size proportions. These features are not found in the Jarmo teeth. Rather, the Jarmo dentition resembles more the Indo-European type. It also holds a close resemblance to that of the Anatolians (Senyurek, '52).

    ....

    Genetic and nongenetic dental features of the early agriculturists of Jarmo, Iraq have many similarities to those of the modern Mediterranean and European peoples. They resemble the Iranian and Indo-European more than others, and have no Mongoloid traits."

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    Are you suggesting Jarmo had lots of WHG ancestry?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krefter View Post
    Are you suggesting Jarmo had lots of WHG ancestry?
    I will have to read Zvelebil:

    In the book edited by Zvelebil Hunters in Transition: Mesolithic Societies of Temperate Eurasia and Their Transition to Farming, we find this strong statement (p.138) by G. Matyushin:

    the geometric microliths and points found in the mesolithic sites of the southern Urals are identical with the inventory of the remains found in Belt Cave, Hotu, Shanidar B, Karim Shahir, Zawi Chemi Shanidar, Jarmo and other sites in southwestern Asia - the area of the origin of domestication during the tenth to eighth millennium bc.

    Now, these sites are in two areas, the South Caspian region and the northern Zagros. In the previous page, the same author writes: "Sudden ecological changes at the end of the Pleistocene led to the penetration of the southern Urals by South Caspian populations, with the result that a unique culture (Yangelskaya)... developed in the area." At p.143, he observes that "anthropological data provide further evidence for the arrival of population from the south to the Urals, in the Mesolithic."
    "Can we finally identify the real cradle of Indo-Europeans?"

    Also:

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan
    Early R1b-Zarzian hunter gatherers in Iran?

    I believe that the most likely position for P25* and upstream in the period 15000BC-9000BC when there was little else in R1b is likely in northern Iran where more of this has been observed than anywhere else. That corresponds with the Zarzian culture very well. The date match is rather uncanny. Factors like the LGM, deserification and apparent abandonment of north central Asia in the LGM and enormous flooding just after the LGM of south Russia and western north central Asia and the east Caucasus limit the options. Iran was the least effected zone by these post-LGM floods.

    It is also well known that north-south and south-north movement was greatly hampered in the period 15000-12000BC especially. The younger dryas make also have delayed this. It seem unlikely that it moved north before this given the lack of P25* in the north and the barrier that existed to this which appears to have coincided with the first 3000 years of its existence. It is interesting that the opening up of opportunities for P25* lines to head north does date to the same period as P297. It is clear from the lack of any remains of the P297* until 5000BC that it had moved out of the early farming zone before 8000BC. So you could say that provides a nice pair of bookends pushing this hypothetical move into the period around 9000BC. This is exactly the date estimated for P297. I need to dig about a bit more for evidence of this sort of move although I already quoted an example of a move through the Caucasus into Russia a little north of the Caucasus in this timeframe.

    The Zarzian is thought to descend from members of the Baradostian culture of the Zagross who surived the LGM by abandoning the uplands. My guess would be a move to the south Caspian. The Barodostian is similar to Aurignacian of Europe and similar Levantine cultures. It dates from about 35000BC to the LGM. IMO that sort of date and distribution is a very good match for the proposed split of F into the IJ line of the Levant and Anatolia and the K line. That almost takes us back to the origin of modern humans in the area. Perhaps the K and then P lines headed from the Iran sort of area. There original distribution was probably very much altered by the abandonment of much of north central Asia during the LGM followed by massive flooding in western north-central Asia which both may have pushed many lines south and east. Anyway,. it would seem a reasonable supposition that R* arose in the LGM among some of the groups. If the Zarzian is descended from earlier Baradostian Aurignoid groups in the Zagros who abandoned the uplands in the LGM that would suggest that may have been the cultural identity and location of R* and upstream of that. However, there were other Aurignoid groups in north central Asia before the LGM so I wouldnt push this.

    So, it seems to me that Zarzian groups in northern Iran may have been the source of early R1b, best represented by P25*, and the most likely date of their offshoot north is around 9000BC when a move north probably finally had a combination of possibility and attractiveness. This is very close to the date of P297. This also makes sense because it is necessary to get this line out of the zone of early farming which appears from the complete lack of P297* anywhere to have passed this line by, the latter tottering on the edge of existence until the 5000-3500BC era.
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2016-05-22 at 08:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    Indeed Satsurblia (Y-chromosome J2, mtdna K3) was also classified as Epigravettian.

    Bichon (Y-chromosome I2, mtDNA U5b1h) was in Qiaomei Fu et al. labeled as Azzilian. Villabruna had mtDNA hg U5b2b.

    EDIT.



    EDIT2:



    EDIT3: Another map:



    EDIT4: "First Epigravettian Ceramic Figurines from Europe (Vela Spila, Croatia)", Rebecca Farbstein et al.
    Satsurblia is actually not J2. He is J1. The Mesolithic sample Kotias (from the Kotias Klde rock shelter in Georgia) is J2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Satsurblia is actually not J2. He is J1. The Mesolithic sample Kotias (from the Kotias Klde rock shelter in Georgia) is J2.
    Any strong reasons to believe that Fu and company made a mistake?

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    I was thinking it we could link Epigravettian to any archeological phenomena from Africa. Like for instance Iberomaurusian:



    Geographically, the Iberomaurusians occupied the Mediterranean littoral from Morocco to Tunisia and the Cyrenaica region (“Oranian”) further east. Today the Iberomaurusian is believed to be of essentially local origin, although possible forerunners from the Levant (Late Ahmarian, early Kebaran), Italia (Epigravettian) and the Nile valley have been discussed in the past.
    EDIT. Iberomaurusians had mtDNA haplogroups U6, H, JT and V:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    In 2013, Iberomaurusian skeletons from the prehistoric sites of Taforalt and Afalou were analyzed for ancient DNA. All of the specimens belonged to maternal clades associated with either North Africa or the northern and southern Mediterranean littoral, indicating gene flow between these areas since the Epipaleolithic.[9] The ancient Taforalt individuals carried the mtDNA haplogroups U6, H, JT and V, which points to population continuity in the region dating from the Iberomaurusian period.
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2016-12-20 at 09:33.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    Any strong reasons to believe that Fu and company made a mistake?
    Satsurblia was J1-F4306, this is not some secret, we've known it since we managed to get our hands on the data. The problem is that most of the folks cooking up peer-reviewed studies don't seem interested in narrowing down the Y-DNA profile of ancient samples, this is actually becoming a recurrent theme.


    Quote Originally Posted by MnM View Post
    Morocco is a western lapdog.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    Those Bronze Age samples are just red herrings to distract you from the actual arrivals of populations with Semitic ancestry. Don’t take the bait by focusing on the wrong samples, lol. He is passing off Bronze Age Levantines with no evidence of strong predynastic input, as “Semites“. This way, he can flip it around and say Proto-Semitic speakers and predynastics were more or less identical to the Bronze Age Levantines sampled so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    @Semitic Duwa

    Wonder what the resident Proto-Semite has to say about this. I thought unmixed Egyptians were supposed to be Abusir with less/zero Chl?

    In your view, does this prove you wrong, or is it just a coincidence () that M1 is absent in one of the three subsamples from Abusir, and rare overall?

    And don’t change your signature now, please. I’m looking forward to you looking more and more incompetent as more aDNA is published. Wish there was a way to speed this up. But the extra wait and seeing you with your pants down every day, kinda has its own appeal, too.

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