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Thread: Brazilian Genetic Discussion98 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoldBedBug View Post
    -Also, regarding some comments about São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro: The state of São Paulo as a whole is certainly more European, but the city of São Paulo is probably only slightly more European than the city of Rio. Probably the non-European element in São Paulo is more balanced though, since the city has received a lot of northeastern immigrants. I would say São Paulo is more tri-racial while Rio de Janeiro is more of a Mulatto city. Hardly one can say São Paulo is a White city, although you can find a minority of North Italian ancestry in the city, while people of European immigrant stock are less common in Rio de janeiro.
    According some Genetic Test and the Census:

    Rio de Janeiro era formada por 3 239 888 brancos (51,26%), 2 318 675 pardos (36,69%), 708 148 pretos (11,2%), 45 913 amarelos e 5 981 indígenas (0,09%)
    https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_de...3o_.C3.A9tnica

    São Paulo
    The census found 6,824,668 White people (60.6%), 3,433,218 Pardo (multiracial) people (30.5%), 736,083 Black people (6.5%), 246,244 Asian people (2.2%) and 21,318 Amerindian people (0.2%).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A...o#Demographics

    Genetic Test

    São Paulo
    'Whites': 84% European
    Non-Whites: 60% European
    http://erj.ersjournals.com/content/e...600&carousel=1
    http://erj.ersjournals.com/content/36/4/834

    Rio de Janeiro
    'Whites': 86% European
    Mixed: 68% European
    Afro-Brazilians: 43% European
    The average proportions of European ancestry decreased progressively from self-reported White (0.86, n = 100), to Brown (0.68, n = 100) and then to Black individuals (0.43, n = 100).
    http://journal.frontiersin.org/artic...00118/full#B43

    Result:
    City of São Paulo ~ 74,5% European, 17,5% African, 8% Amerindian and East Asian.
    City of Rio de Janeiro ~ 73,5% European, 19,5% African, 7% Amerindian.

    If it has any greater difference it will depend on the Metropolitan Regions of each city. The bigger difference between these two cities is that probably São Paulo has more Northeastern self-declaring Whites and Rio more Black people. Even if there difference regarding the racial component in the metropolitan regions, RMSP should be at most 5% more european than the RMRJ. Both are closer or they are the Brazilian Average, South/Interior of São Paulo are the only regions of Brazil more euro-shifted. Also, I am not surprised that Rio is reasonably European as well, the city despite always had many blacks, always had a good amount of whites too and received many Europeans in the last immigration and less northeastern people than São Paulo.

    The image of Rio, however, is of the Congo and the African Capital of the Americas.

    And I agree hardly someone could see São Paulo as 'White' city, for example Suplicy looks the only 'White' here (1:20)
    Last edited by Montanini; 2017-01-10 at 21:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Montanini View Post
    ** Also Southern Parts of RS has a large number of blacks compared to other regions of the South.

    This map gives us the impression that southern Rio Grande do Sul is as Black as some northern areas of the country, which is not correct.

    Compare it to this map, which shows the frequency of Blacks and "Pardos":



    Still, it is true that, at least out of Rio Grande do Sul and Santa Catarina, the southern area of RGS is the least European. Pelotas is a good representative for these southern areas of the state, which have not been very influenced by the European immigration from Germany, northern Italy, etc.

    I am actually surprised to see how European Pelotas scores, because their inhabitants seem very dark if you are used to the population of northern RGS, which is where I am from. I see a lot more people I consider "Black" there than I normally see up here, indeed. Excluding Haitian and African immigrants, obviously. Also, perhaps the Iberian element helps them appear "darker" to me, since Iberians are on average more southern looking than the northern Italians and Germans I see more often. Northern Italians from around here look fairly Central European, although obviously the German areas are lighter and taller on average.

    It would be really interesting to see admixture tests coming from these northern and more European-influenced towns and cities of RGS.

    These studies from Porto Alegre and Pelotas are way more representative for the southern/colonial part of the state, rather than the northern/German-Italian part in my opinion.

    If a city like Caxias do Sul were tested, easily some 50% of the population would be completely European (mostly of Northern Italian/Venetian origin). If we could travel to the past, probably even more, as the city is very developed, and has been receiving many migrants.

    Take a look at this regional map of the state:




    Areas 4 and 5 are good candidates to the most European region of Brazil. About half of the contribution from areas 1 and 2 would be of German/Italian stock, the second most European area of the state. Area 3 would be mostly of colonial/Brazilian origin, but with some German/Italian influence. Areas 6 and 7 would have received only minor German/Italian influence, if any at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoldBedBug View Post
    This map gives us the impression that southern Rio Grande do Sul is as Black as some northern areas of the country, which is not correct.

    Compare it to this map, which shows the frequency of Blacks and "Pardos":

    That's true Pelotas is much more European than most places in the Northern there's no doubt, I posted this map exactly to emphasize that the self-declared Pardos are normally much more European as a group than the self-declared Blacks* and that Pelotas wasn't 16,6% black in reality, but "only" 11,5% according with the Census. That was the point of my explanation in that moment.

    "because Pelotas isn't 77/6/17 but 79,5/9/11,5".

    You can see that Pardos are much more European than Blacks when you analyze some results:

    Look the difference:

    Bambuí - Minas Gerais
    Pelotas - Rio Grande do Sul
    Baependi - Minas Gerais

    http://i.imgur.com/EFCTUju.jpg
    http://www.nature.com/articles/srep09812/tables/1

    Self-Idenfied 'Whites'

    Pelotas: 77,5%, (5,8% Pardo and 16,6% Black)
    Bambui: 60,6% (36,9% Pardo and 2,5% Black)
    Baependi: 76,7% (17,2% Pardo and 5,6% Black)

    These three cities are of Colonial origin (I really think that all samples of Minas Gerais are of Colonial stock) in Pelotas exist some especially German survivors, perhaps some 10% could be fully European if old people are analyzed. But like you said the influence is just minimal compared even with Porto Alegre, but especially with Center-North of RGS, that's for sure.

    Ok let's go, the result for these three cities:

    Bambuí and Pelotas

    Result from Baependi

    Prob. 81-82% European

    Together:





    Quote Originally Posted by BoldBedBug View Post
    *And you can see here:

    Still, it is true that, at least out of Rio Grande do Sul and Santa Catarina, the southern area of RGS is the least European. Pelotas is a good representative for these southern areas of the state, which have not been very influenced by the European immigration from Germany, northern Italy, etc.
    That's what I think too, less recent European immigration and more self-declared Blacks. I don't see any region of these states less European than Southern part of RS. If you look at your map, for example, you will see that West of Santa Catarina have more Pardos and Blacks together than Pelotas, but I know several people from this region and they are all 100% European (German, German, German/Italian, Italian, German/French/Italian), people from 100% European origin look like the standard for who identifies themselves as White in this region, of course there are some 'Whites' of colonial origin, but they are for sure the minority.

    Quote Originally Posted by BoldBedBug View Post
    I am actually surprised to see how European Pelotas scores, because their inhabitants seem very dark if you are used to the population of northern RGS, which is where I am from. I see a lot more people I consider "Black" there than I normally see up here, indeed. Excluding Haitian and African immigrants, obviously. Also, perhaps the Iberian element helps them appear "darker" to me, since Iberians are on average more southern looking than the northern Italians and Germans I see more often. Northern Italians from around here look fairly Central European, although obviously the German areas are lighter and taller on average.
    Especially the swarthy and odd ones, some could pass as regular person from Europe, others look like very 'med' (Idk if Med is the right word, but some of them are very Southern-looking indeed) and even display some strange features.
    I was talking about the Portuguese, I think Spanish are more european-looking than the Portuguese.

    Quote Originally Posted by BoldBedBug View Post

    It would be really interesting to see admixture tests coming from these northern and more European-influenced towns and cities of RGS.

    These studies from Porto Alegre and Pelotas are way more representative for the southern/colonial part of the state, rather than the northern/German-Italian part in my opinion.

    If a city like Caxias do Sul were tested, easily some 50% of the population would be completely European (mostly of Northern Italian/Venetian origin). If we could travel to the past, probably even more, as the city is very developed, and has been receiving many migrants.

    Take a look at this regional map of the state:




    Areas 4 and 5 are good candidates to the most European region of Brazil. About half of the contribution from areas 1 and 2 would be of German/Italian stock, the second most European area of the state. Area 3 would be mostly of colonial/Brazilian origin, but with some German/Italian influence. Areas 6 and 7 would have received only minor German/Italian influence, if any at all.
    There is a map circulating on the Internet:



    This map combines almost perfectly with the study of the non-Iberian surnames.

    About highly European regions, part of my family is from the Alto do Vale do Itajaí, the system there is more or less like or you are 100% European (German/Italian or Polish origin, mostly) or you are a migrant from other parts of Brazil (and they are the minority) or you are part of some isolated indigenous tribe. There is not much to talk about. Blumenau the standard is the same, or you are of immigrant origin or you are a Brazilian migrant (they have more compared to smaller cities, obviously) who lives there. Normally scumbags from Bahia stands out easily there its like the Haitians in less black version).

    In Joinville there is already more population of Portuguese/Colonial origin outside the non-white migrants, but still there is a good portion of the population of immigrant origin too, very present in all social classes.

    The Census even though it does not represent the conformities very well, gives a good sense of reality after all, and then you really see the difference between the South and the rest of the country.

    In fact, The South should separate from the rest of Brazil, who says that there is not much difference from the rest of the country must be drunk, dishonest or something. Even if it were only 5% more European, this number ends up making a huge difference at the end of the day. For example, 30,000 Haitian immigrants already irritate us here, but for the region to become 5% more African, how many Haitians would we have to import if If the South of Brazil has 30 million inhabitants? And look, I don't want to say that immigration from Haiti is cool, I'm just frizzing that 5% of difference means a lot, is enough to justify a racial difference between some parts of Brazil to other parts.

    Look at City of Rio "73,5% European":

    Spoiler: 

    You can see many 'Whites' (many of them of recent Portuguese descent) and Blacks and pardos also have a good amount of European blood.
















    However, this city just seems to be a big mistake.
    Last edited by Montanini; 2017-01-11 at 12:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Montanini View Post
    Especially the swarthy and odd ones, some could pass as regular person from Europe, others look like very 'med' (Idk if Med is the right word, but some of them are very Southern-looking indeed) and even display some strange features.
    I was talking about the Portuguese, I think Spanish are more european-looking than the Portuguese.
    Yes, you are correct. Indeed some Iberians can look rather central/northern European, but more often than not they have a stereotypical Mediterranean appearance.

    That seems to be even more true for the Portuguese when compared to the Spanish, but the difference is not huge.

    Northern Italians can have a very southern European/Med look as well, but mostly they have a central European look, with phenotypes usually called Alpine, Dinarid, Norid (Nordid + Dinarid), Subnordid (Nordid + Alpine), Atlantid, etc.

    Germans are very light. Easily half of the population of pure German ancestry has light hair, and more than half has light eyes.


    There is a map circulating on the Internet:


    Makes a lot of sense for RGS, as far as I can tell. Indeed the coastal areas of the state are very Colonial (Iberian/African/Amerindian), as well as the southern areas.


    In fact, The South should separate from the rest of Brazil, who says that there is not much difference from the rest of the country must be drunk, dishonest or something.
    I agree. There is definitely a lot of difference.

    Even northern Paraná and southern RGS are more European influenced than the average for Brazil.

    What really makes us different though, is this area that stretches from central/northern RGS to southern Paraná. The area settled by non-Iberian European immigrants. If we could separate this area only, instead of the south region as a whole, life quality, criminality, and whatnot would be even better.

    Having the whole south separated would be a good improvement already, however.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoldBedBug View Post
    Makes a lot of sense for RGS, as far as I can tell. Indeed the coastal areas of the state are very Colonial (Iberian/African/Amerindian), as well as the southern areas.



    I agree. There is definitely a lot of difference.

    Even northern Paraná and southern RGS are more European influenced than the average for Brazil.


    What really makes us different though, is this area that stretches from central/northern RGS to southern Paraná. The area settled by non-Iberian European immigrants. If we could separate this area only, instead of the south region as a whole, life quality, criminality, and whatnot would be even better.

    Having the whole south separated would be a good improvement already, however.
    Spoiler: 


    Not to mention that the coastal areas attracts all kinds of White and Non-White tourists.


    The North of Paraná (at least the North Central area of Paraná) has a considerable amount of Whites (people who can pass in S. Europe no trouble, perhaps some 40-50%), comparable to the interior of São Paulo, the problem is that the non-whites there are also many.
    The only way to improve the situation in this region is to take advantage of the affinity of this region with the Interior of São Paulo and bring the largest number of 90%+ Europeans of this area. If Northern Paraná had a foreign born of 90%+ Europeans in the order of 50% or even 100%, this would become a nice region. Then, all that remains is to build some barrier with the rest of the country.

    The same for Southern RS, even the Pelotas Region is prob. almost 80% European (which is pretty high for Latin America standards) if the South of the RS receive 1 million of 90%+ Europeans of Uruguay and Argentina, it could actually get whiter and better. The rest would be to provide birth control policies for the lower classes, especially in the large cities, and pro-White policies as well. This should give our future and new country the best potential in Latin America, at least regading human capital.

    It would be interesting to keep some regions close to 100% European as well. Let the multiculturalism to big cities like my city or Porto Alegre. Blacks are a danger we need to deal with, most of the Southern population has nothing to do with them and slavery, may they go to shit with the crude victimism and sensitivity of them or go to Bahia, which is the place of Blacks itself. I also do not go with Mestizos and other Hispanics, they have usually have more children than they should have and are like a nation itself, where they have one, they want more Mestizos.

    I personally I prefer the idea of ethno-state in the manner as I had said before, maintaining a 'semi-European' (~90% European as whole) country with over 70 million inhabitants. We would have population, internal consumption, generation of ideas, 'big' population to have even more influence than Brasil now.

    I think that would be impossible, though. I am in favor of expanding the territory and annexing Uruguay as well, I think if we had a much better country there would be no objection from them and we would have even more land.

    PD: If I had to choose one population between Afrikaners and Iberians to be part of this new country of course I would choose the Afrikaners before Iberians for sure, even though the latter are more "European" than the first, but we are in Latin America, we wouldn't have so much to choose. I just hope they don't bring the plague of the Iberian and Iberian-American mentality here, those who think that Brazil is a model of country, stay in that shit.

    It would be cool if all of this to happen, things look worse than they are because we are in Brazil, but every country in The Americas except maybe Canada and some parts of the United States is not in a better position than that, if compared to Latin America then...

    Last edited by Montanini; 2017-01-13 at 10:53.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoldBedBug View Post
    Take a look at this regional map of the state:




    Areas 4 and 5 are good candidates to the most European region of Brazil. About half of the contribution from areas 1 and 2 would be of German/Italian stock, the second most European area of the state. Area 3 would be mostly of colonial/Brazilian origin, but with some German/Italian influence. Areas 6 and 7 would have received only minor German/Italian influence, if any at all.

    Socioeconomic Status Is Not Related with Facial Fluctuating Asymmetry: Evidence from Latin-American Populations

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0169287

    As part of the CANDELA initiative [51,52], we recruited 2,019 volunteers between 18 and 63 years (mean = 25.73 sd = 6.64; females = 850 mean = 25.05 sd = 6.23; males = 1165 mean = 26.22 sd = 6.88), from ten Latin-American cities: Mexico City (Mexico), Medellin (Colombia), Lima (Peru), Arica (Chile) and Porto Alegre, Jequié, Porto Velho, Sao Gabriel, Cândido Godoi and Imbé (all in Brazil).

    Porto Alegre



    São Gabriel



    Candido Godói



    Imbé, Coastal RS



    Jequié, Bahia



    Porto Velho, Rondonia




    Samples:



    Brazil: 247

    Results of the Sample for Brazil (I would particularly like to see the result for each city and for self-identification), this sample shows less European output for all countries, all results here: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...try_sample.png.
    . S2 Table S2 Btw,













    But like most of test of this sample were collected in colonial cities of Portuguese ancestry, I found this comment by Ubirajara plausible:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ubirajara View Post
    There are many. And over 99% is already withing "fully European" range, as 23andme explicitly says. There are actually fully Iberian people who I saw who scored 98% (so "fully European" could start at 98%, and there are even more Cubans at that).
    # Post 252: http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...dme#post716157

    Also Idk If they put Mena in other places...

    Of the sample:

    22% are over 98% European
    26% are between 90% and 98% European
    14% are between 85% and 90% European
    13% are between 80% and 85% European
    25% are less than 80% European





    All results:
    Brazil, 1594 Samples
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...try_sample.png

    Thread:
    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...ia-Mexico-Peru
    Last edited by Montanini; 2017-01-14 at 03:12.

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    ^^

    In fact despite these samples from Candela Test were collect mostly in Colonial (Iberian/Amerindian/African) cities of RS, Rondonia and Bahia, these result are not far from the true for the South, at least for the 3/4 most european people in the sample, perhaps in the average for the region you can find more (or even significantly more) people 100% and 98% Euro if you include the non-Iberian mesorregions.

    Btw,

    Compare:

    Result for Baependi, Minas Gerais (76,7% White, 17,2 Mixed and 5,8 Black http://i.imgur.com/EFCTUju.jpg)


    Prob. 81-82% Euro.





    Southern Brazil according the Brazilian Census from 2010. 78,5% White, 16,5% Mixed, 4% Black.




    Result for 247 samples:




    Now for example if we selected the 75% Whitest people in the South, independent of the self-declaration, those are probably above 80% European as in the sample, I would get this result as a average:

    92,5% European
    5% Amerindian
    2,5% African


    Twice more Amerindian than African.


    I mean it is a lot, 20,540,000 'Whites' South Brazilians with average of ~92,5% European, 5% Amerindian and 2,5% African with Idk maybe 40-60% of non-Iberian component such as German and Northern Italian mainly but also Polish/Ukranian. 92,5% is on par with Afrikaners according with "Dr. Johannes Heese in his study Die Herkoms van die Afrikaners estimated an average ethnic admixture for Afrikaners of 35.5% Dutch, 34.4% German, 13.9% French, 7.2% non-European, 2.6% British, 2.8% other European, and 3.6% unknown" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaners#Genealogy


    If we selected only people over 90% European in the South, independent of the self-declaration, I would get this result as a average: 96,6% European, 2,3% Amerindian and 1,1% African. 13.15 million 'Whites' Southern Brazilians.
    Last edited by Montanini; 2017-01-15 at 04:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoldBedBug View Post

    If a city like Caxias do Sul were tested, easily some 50% of the population would be completely European (mostly of Northern Italian/Venetian origin). If we could travel to the past, probably even more, as the city is very developed, and has been receiving many migrants.

    The ideal would be to know exactly the population only with non-Iberian ancestry. For Paraná my guess is somewhere between 1/8 and 1/6. For Santa Catarina like 1/3. Of course there are some 100% Europeans with Portuguese ancestry (http://www.city-data.com/forum/genea...brasilian.html), but these are the exceptions.
    Last edited by Montanini; 2017-01-15 at 20:01.

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    ^^

    Btw, the Candela Test will only be representative if it includes self-classification of the people and where they are from.

    In the last test they you can see that the Blackest person only has 50% of African blood, the rest all less than 30% African (on other words is very likely that this last study only analyzed Pardos and Whites from RO, BA and RS).


    I would rather see a detailed result on this study:


    Implications of the Admixture Process in Skin Color Molecular Assessment




    Aiming to evaluate possible population stratification due to admixture, we first tested the differences between Gaucho and Baiano samples with respect to European, African, and Native American ancestries measured using the 40 Ancestry Informative Markers employed in the CANDELA Consortium. The two groups differed for African and European contributions (p<0.001), as well as Native American ancestry (p = 0.017). The percentage mean values are: Gaucho: European, 84.86; African, 6.99; and Native American, 8.15; Baiano: 61.47, 29.91, and 8.62, respectively (Table S3 in File S1).

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e.0096886.s001

    ^^
    Here you can see people over 91% African from RS or over 88% African from Bahia, 55% Amerindian from RS or 37% Amerindian from Bahia.
    It would probably be more in accordance with the system of self-classification and heterogeneity of the results and looks we are accustomed to seeing here, day after day.

    Also you can see here that at least 148 of the original 1594 samples (9,2%) are from Bahia.
    Probably there are more and also other places like Rondonia. It may sound small, but it is enough to say that the test is not a Gaucho test, but a Brazilian test:


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    Genome-wide Analysis in Brazilians Reveals Highly Differentiated Native American Genome Regions

    Northeast

    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten....full.pdf+html

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