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Thread: Brazilian Genetic Discussion196 days old

  1. #91
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    Maybe I'm wrong at people over 10% African in Brazil, they could be more like ~60% (50 to 65%). But there is a myth... Brazilians being largely triracial.

    At least here in South/Southeast and even in Bahia and other parts of Northeast that I will not consider here, the Amerindian presence is very likely less than 10%, prob. about 8% and Bahia + South + Southeast are the majority in the country about 130 of 205 million (63,5%). Here you can see, Bambui Baependi and Pelotas are mainly a Colonial city.

    Native American presence:

    http://www.nature.com/articles/srep09812/tables/1

    75% of people from Pelotas are less than 9,6% Amerindian (Southern RGS have many Amerindian input there where the true Gauchos lives)
    75% of people from Bambui are less than 8,4% Amerindian
    75% of people from Favelas from Salvador are less than 7,8% Amerindian.


    As you can see if you consider "largely triracial" to be more than 10% of three things, South/Southeast/Bahia (majority) we are not, In my guess I would say that ~15% are over 10% Amerindian here, then ~85% of Southeast Brazilians/Southern Brazilians and Bahianos are either White or different levels of White-Black mix with recessive Amerindian component. ~15% could be considered tri-racial or Mestizo/Castizo with more than 10% Amerindian blood. That is a result for a part of the country that is less than 10% amerindian (about 8%). The rest Idk in fact but they are a minority (36,5%).

    I think there are two country

    1. White and White-African mixed are pred.

    1.1 South: Pred White, mixed people is either White-Black mixed (different levels) or White-Amerindian, tri-racials (more than 10% all things) are a clearly minority imo.

    1.2 Southeast: Pred White and different levels of White-Black, others are tri-racials and White-Amerindians are a clearly minority here.

    1.3 Bahia: Pred White-Black (different levels), others are Whites and a minority are tri-racials, White-Amerindians are almost inexistent here.



    2. Tri-racials are more common,

    How much? I don't know. But I would say even there is more difference between its own population, Northeast is a less euro version of Puerto Rico. Center-West really have more difference, but there is more Amerindian input than 10% (Mato Grosso mainly), and North many if not most of them are over 10% Amerindian.
    Last edited by Montanini; 2017-03-28 at 15:16.

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  3. #92
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    Btw, I'm Southern Brazilian and I only consider White people 90% or over 90% European, in that point Southern Brazil is probably about half White and Brazil just over 20% White.

    I consider people 80/89,9% European as Off-White.
    Last edited by Montanini; 2017-03-29 at 07:33.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Montanini View Post
    Btw, I'm Southern Brazilian and I only consider White people 90% or over 90% European, in that point Southern Brazil is probably about half White and Brazil just over 20% White.

    I consider people 80/89,9% European as Off-White.
    And how do you determine this without DNA testing the entire population? The old eyeball test... I guess these "White" Brazilians walk around Brazil with their DNA results stitched to their clothing that inexplicably states their "Whiteness." FOHWTBS!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afura View Post
    And how do you determine this without DNA testing the entire population? The old eyeball test... I guess these "White" Brazilians walk around Brazil with their DNA results stitched to their clothing that inexplicably states their "Whiteness." FOHWTBS!
    Do you have another bet? If they measured the entire Brazilian population, it would be better to prove that my state is much closer to the average South than São Paulo, for example. I would not say that this is by the old eyeball test, it is much more based on the genetic tests that they have released until now and by the history of the colonization of each place. I would say that there is a margin of error in my estimate of 5% down or up. However, my numbers are quite plausible. I've hit other results before they get the numbers. If I use the eye I would say that number is higher, at least for my region.

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    I disagree that Brazil being only 10% White (in the sense of Brazilians being 90% or more European) and I think 5-7% is very real estimatition of unmixed Europeans in Brazil too, most of people over 50 years but also many Euro-born Brazilians here , even if they are like 400.000. Estimations out. Most Euro regions of Brazil weren't analyzed, they always analyze Porto Alegre or other colonial areas such as São Paulo or Rio.

    Let's back to theme.

    South + Southeast is something about 59% White, 34% Mixed, 6% Black and 1% Asian according the official Census of 2010, in fact it is close to the numbers of Bambuí in Minas Gerais (http://www.nature.com/articles/srep09812/tables/1) 60,6% White (1,6+), 36,9% (2,9+), and 2,5% (-3,5%) Black. If you take a look the difference is really small compared with the numbers of South + Southeast together, it is almost the same thing.

    Euro results for Bambuí: 83.8 (74.2-91.2) (Numbers are the best thing, numbers reflect things as they are in reality, numbers are better than graphics) ok the 25% most Euro are 91,2% Euro or over, between 83,8 and 91,2 we have 7,4. 91,2 - 90,0 = 1,2 | 1,2/7,4 = 16,2% 25 x 0,162 = ~4%.... so let's say ~29% are over 90% Euro (25% over 91,2% and ~4% between 90,0% and 91,2%). 29%.

    So if Bambui, that which has a very similar demography compared with South and Southeast of the country, has 29% people over 90% Euro, then (I downgrade about 2% for precaution) South/Southeast could be at least 27% "White", (and we are 56% of all the country), so Brazil is at least (AT LEAST) 15% White and this taking into account that the rest of the country (44%) exist 0% of people above 90% Euro (I feel that it is close to 10% if you ask me) and in another side without take into account that Minas Gerais is the least White region in South/Southeast Brazil (since always) and that it received fewer European immigrants compared with all other states not only SP and Southern Brazil, but Rio de Janeiro and Espirito Santo as well nor ethnic cities or regions built and inhabited by people of Italian or German origin for example. Minas Gerais is almost as colonial as Northeast!

    https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imigra...a.C3.A7.C3.A3o



    So, Brasil is somewhere between 15% White (at worst) and 25% White, IMO could be between 20-22%.
    I will be surprised if Brazil has less or more than people over 90% European these numbers (17/25).


    On the other hand I would not be surprised if Brazil had more people, proportionally, 70% European or more Euro than Argentina for example, since all the Argentine national tests, people above 70% European reach only in the middle of the charts, about half (50%). But I can see Argentina being about 60% "70+% European people" too. Tests with Pampa being 79% Euro (about 75% are over 70% Euro) and prob. in the rest (imo about 30%), so 67 x 0.75 + 33 x 0.30 could fit for me too.

    The point is: I accept Brazil as ~65-69% European (even though the av. for Brazil including some tests with low markers is about 68,75% Euro) and Argentina just over 70% (like 71 to 73%, the average 71,25% Euro according some genetic test). But if Cubans tests are truly representative for the Island and I think they are, Cuba is more European than Argentina, about 74,5% European (if Cuba is 64% White, 26,5% Mixed and 9,5% Black as the Census says and I believe) and then people over 70% European are the clear majority, over 60% just easily, and still some chance that over 30% of Cubans be 90% or more European.

    There is no confirmation based on genetic test that Argentina is really more European than Cuba, in fact Cuba is more Euro than Argentina according Genetic Tests.

    On other hand Southern and Southeast Brazil together according the Genetic Tests shows some similarities with Cuba:

    Cuba 64 White x 0.86 Euro: 55 | 26,5% Mixed x 0.64 Euro: 17 | 9,5% Black x 0.29: 2.5 = 74.5 Euro
    South and Southeast Brazil (115 million/205 ===> 2016 Estimative) 59 White x 0.85 Euro: 50 | 34% Mixed x 0.68 Euro: 23 | 6% Black x 0.43: 2.5 = 75.5 Euro

    My estimation for South (82%) and Southeast (70%)  73 Euro.


    Mix between Genetic Test and my conservative estimation: 75,5 + 73 / 2 = 74,25% (similar as Cuba)
    They are very close in fact. All things comproved according many Genetic Test with many authors different and diverse years, cities and states.

    There is truth in these numbers.

    Btw there is something wrong I put Southeast as 52% "White" when in fact according the oficial Census they are over 55%




    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...scussion/page3

    From Southern Brazil here (about 78,5% White)


    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...scussion/page6

  7. #96
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    If only South and Southeast I would say that Brazil being 16,4% African (but 17,8% is also possible) and 8,4% Amerindian is the most OK for me; South/Southeast Brazil is very prob. less than 10% Ameridian as a whole, almost 12% or 13% is too much. Most Genetic test show that this part of Brazil is prob. about 8% Amerindian and I agree.



    Even only 13,4% African is more probably than let's say over 12% Amerindian IMO.


    IMO South and Southeast Brazil together is between 69,75% Euro to 77,5% Euro. Around 7-10% Amerindian and the rest African.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Montanini View Post



    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...a-Chile-Brazil

    Post 46 http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...e-Brazil/page5

    I was thought that Southern Brazil was 5% Eastern Europe (Ukranian and Polish mainly). Paraná is prob. the most Eastern European state of Latin America and I think Center-South Paraná is maybe about 7,5-12.5% Eastern Europe and the Paraná as a whole maybe 7,5%. Curitiba is very Italian to be more Polish/Ukranian and German than the rest of the Center-South Paraná, little more non-Iberian.

    Of these 1,3% Slavic contribution, I guess some 0,9 comes from the Polish, 0,3% from the Ukranian and 0,1% from the rest. Prob. 80% of Poles are in Southern Brazil, prob. some 60% of Ukranians are in Southern Brazil also. and the rest prob. half, then I would say that ~70 to 75% of Eastern European input in Brazil are in Southern Brazil. Prob. some 40% only in Paraná. Then Paraná is prob. about 10% Eastern. European and the South of Brazil, ~ 6,5%.

    70-75% x 1.3 = 0.9425/14,3 (Southern Brazil) = 6,6% (~6,5%)

    Germany similar case, almost 80% of the German input of Brazil (~77,5), are from the South, (~65%) only in the SC and RS, according some Surname Database, if the all the German input of Brazil is about 4% to 5%, then the Southern Brazil is about 21,6% to 27% German (and Austrian/Swiss-German) or little more than 24%. Paraná about almost 10% to 12% German. SC and RS about 28,6% to 35,7%.

    So the total of German + Polish/Ukranian could be according these data about 30,5% of All Southern Brazil contribution.

    However If we use this data, more conservative, part of the same study of the table "Predicted Ancestry":



    If Brazil is 0,8 East Europe and ~72,5% is from the South, then Southern Brazil according this data is prob. about 4% Eastern Europe. It is possible too.

    And if Brazil is 3,3% German and 77,5%¨is from the South, then Southern Brazil is prob. about 18% German.

    Both German and Eastern Euro input combine to 22% of all ancestry from Southern Brazil.

    I don't know the truth but I'm almost sure that the Polish/Ukranian/East Euro + German/Austrian contribution is somewhere between 22% to 33,5% of all Southern Brazilian components. Before I had put the German contribution at 21% and the Eastern European contribution at 5%. The other big component Non Iberian, the Italian, is prob. at least 15%.
    And if Brazil is 7,7% Italian and 20,5% of it according this table is from the South of Brazil..

    then Southern Brazil is 11% Italian and... 18% German (if Brazil is 3,3% German), 4% Eastern European (if Brazil is 0,8% EAS), Japanese prob. about 1%.

    If Brazil is 11% Italian, 4,5% German and 1,3% EAS then:

    Southern Brazil is ~16% Italian, 24% German, 6,5% Eastern European and 1% Japanese.

    But point, In Southern we received Italians of North and there is a plenty of Italians surnames very common here and peaks here also. Then if I upgrade the % of Italians presence of Italians here to 25%-30% (possible), then:

    Southern Brazil is ~15% Italian (if Brazil is 7,7% Italian), 18% German, 4,% Eastern European and 1% Japanese to 21% Italian, 24% German, 6,5% Eastern European and 1% Japanese.

    Originally I put Southern Brazil as 21% Italian, 21% German, 5% EAS and 1% Japanese.


    Well, if Curitiba is really ~39% Non-Iberian/Colonial and we are more colonial than the average Southern Brazilian I can see 51,5% non Iberian for Southern Brazil as well.

    Btw hardly Southern Brazil is less than 11% Italian, 18% German, 4% Eastern European and 1% Japanese. It is probably more.

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    Except for the test of 46AIM of Brazil where all Brazilians are at least 4/4,5% African and Native-American there is no one test general of Brazilians being less than 65% European. Many people talk about about one compilation (25 to 38 Genetic test were analyzed...) this "study" is a complete bullshit where they are based in the first test mencioned for me and that's why the % of European blood is lower than 65% (but not 62% like they show, but 64,5%, they missed the correct number as well, maybe if the North had 40 million inhabitants instead of 15 I don't know), after all there is some strange results of Brazilians like Whites from SP being 63% European and shits like that I don't know why most White Paulista I have seen are pretty much Southern European and many of them are of Pure European ancestry, one of the my best friend is 75% Italian and 25% Spanish for example and from a small city in SouthWestern SP. There is a lot of people in SP over 90% European. So there is a bunch amount of doubtful genetic tests in Brazil too.


    Finally, I do not believe that Brazil can be only 62% European, especially if you analyze a test with many markers, carried out by the Americans, where they analyze poor places in Fortaleza and some cities from different northeastern regions and the result was 61% European. Brazil must be more European than that, how much I don't know, hard to say. It is more easy you talk about Cuba/Puerto Rico/Chile/Uruguay and even Argentina/Mexico than Brazil, 200 million people with a plenty of people with different background/ different colonization.


    I would particularly like to see a detailed and representative test conducted in each mesoregion of Brazil from the Pampa Gáucho to the Itajaí Valley and the Center-South of Paraná, according to the census and measuring the % of blood from different parts of Europe. You will even notice that there are regions where the Germanic blood is stronger than the Iberian and regions where Italian blood should be of the same level as others. Latin America is a poorly studied place.

    But I would say that 65-70% is still the most reasonable guess.


    If someone is listening and can pass the results individually the Brazilians would be very cool to see. Even knowing that whites should be more representative of what they are in reality.



    Asked about Argentina being more European than Brazil, it would be obvious to say yes, but I worry because I have seen some very low results for Argentines from certain regions. If there were guarantees that places like Corrientes would be close to 70% European I would be safe to put Argentina on 75%.

    Argentine immigration was wrong and should not have been so concentrated in the Pampas, and the Amerindians/Mestizos, who have the most childrens by M² more than the blacks, should have been controlled, because where they are there is poverty. Maybe we expect more from Argentina than it can do, why we think Argentina is more European than it is. Macri was elected in the small difference, so the mestizos must be representative. Brazil lost by the slightest difference, but we got the Impeachment, Venezuela went to the hole and it is probably lost now.

    Brazil is a dead country, it would be nice to see Argentina creating some racial concept of it, stipulating single-child policies for its poorest population and giving refuge/work to millions of Brazilians of mostly European descent (if not over 90%, at least 80%), I would like to be part of strong Latin American country with one future promise rather than having to go to Europe or Anglo-Saxon America in the next 5 years.

    It would be nice to have a country with 70 million inhabitants in Latin America and we could say with assurance that this would be at least 80% European. That may never happen.

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