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Thread: Ashkenazi/Gypsy admixture in Poles/Romanians?2495 days old

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    Default Ashkenazi/Gypsy admixture in Poles/Romanians?

    Both Romanians & Poles have been living side by side with Romas and Jews for almost 1000 years. I hear on internet forums both Poles & Romanians denying any inter-mixing of between Romas/Jews and Poles/Romanians, and they claim there was some kind of social barrier preventing them from breeding with one another.

    How can a people who number in the millions, and who were present for nearly 1000 years, not have any significant influence on the Romanian & Polish blood lines? It makes no sense to me. Is there any data that can shed any light on this?
    Last edited by prototype; 2010-08-27 at 05:46.

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    Sure there's data. Poles are some of the least Middle Eastern and South Euro people in Europe.

    Comparing Jews and Europeans (inc. Poles)

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    Quote Originally Posted by prototype View Post
    Both Romanians & Poles have been living side by side with Romas and Jews for almost 1000 years. I hear on internet forums both Poles & Romanians denying any inter-mixing of between Romas/Jews and Poles/Romanians, and they claim there was some kind of social barrier preventing them from breeding with one another.

    How can a people who number in the millions, and who were present for nearly 1000 years, not have any significant influence on the Romanian & Polish blood lines? It makes no sense to me. Is there any data that can shed any light on this?
    As far as Jews are concerned the relationship exists at least in some cases (I have like 70 Jewish "cousins" at 23adnMe), but it seems that it goes in the opposite direction:

    Although the proximity of the AJ and Italian populations could be explained by their admixture prior to the Ashkenazi settlement in Central Europe (13), it should be noted that different demographic models may potentially yield similar principal component projections (33); thus, it is also consistent that the projection of the AJ populations is primarily the outcome of admixture with Central and Eastern European hosts that coincidentally shift them closer to Italians along principle component axes relative to Middle Easterners. Taken as a whole, our results, along with those from previous studies, support the model of a Middle Eastern origin of the AJ population followed by subsequent admixture with host Europeans or populations more similar to Europeans. Our data further imply that modern Ashkenazi Jews are perhaps even more similar with Europeans than Middle Easterners.
    Analysis of Ashkenazi Jewish genomes (Emerson et al. 2010)

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/08...h-genomes.html



    PNAS doi: 10.1073/pnas.1006538107

    Resolving postglacial phylogeography using high-throughput sequencing

    Kevin J. Emerson et al.


    http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...81107.abstract
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2010-08-27 at 06:29.

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_in_Romania (retarded title...maybe there is one with "Roma in Roma" -_- )

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    Gypsies could definitely use some Jewish blood to be more productive.

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    Analysis of Ashkenazi Jewish genomes (Emerson et al. 2010)

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/08...h-genomes.html
    Wow, already yet another Jewish genome study! Well, fortunately the results from this study match those of Behars and yet again prove Ashkenazi Jews are Europeanised Levantines. (same as the Sephardi, only perhaps slightly different Euro admix) Thats an impressive sample size, but i think the visual admixture charts shown in Behars study are more comprehensible, therefore its easier to draw up conclusions using that data.

    The researchers were able to estimate that between 35 and 55 percent of the modern Ashkenazi genome comes from European descent.
    That wouldn't suprise me, and does seem similiar to Behars findings, but i would be more interested specifically in what kind of European descent? I know Behars hinted at predominantly more South European admix. Also what percentage European descent do the Druze have in this study?

    Although the proximity of the AJ and Italian populations could be explained by their admixture prior to the Ashkenazi settlement in Central Europe (13), it should be noted that different demographic models may potentially yield similar principal component projections (33); thus, it is also consistent that the projection of the AJ populations is primarily the outcome of admixture with Central and Eastern European hosts that coincidentally shift them closer to Italians along principle component axes relative to Middle Easterners.
    Of the two hypothesis, the one in bold makes most sense to me. I believe Jewish inbreeding and genetic bottlenecking would occur at a later stage. I believe many modern Jews have absorbed Italians and Greeks to a higher degree than that of Eastern Europeans or Iberians, with conversions taking place during the Roman Empire. I don't deny there is likely a scratch in the genome of majority of the other two populations. The DNAtribes (although once very useless) supports this hypothesis to with its ancestry profile for Ashkenazi Jews, which you can see on their site. Behars study too, shows both Sephardim and Ashkenazim show a significant amount of Mediterranean-like admixture today most pronounced in Sardinians.

    The bolded part reminds me of what I wrote in my review of Atzmon et al. regarding the choice of parental populations and how they affect admixture estimates. The "Middle Eastern" component estimate will increase if central and eastern Europeans are used as representative of the European admixture, while the "European" estimate will increase if Italians are used. But, the same applies to the other end of the continuum: if ancestral Jews were indeed like current Middle Easterners such as the Druze or Palestinians, but the latter may have moved (in genetic space) away from ancient Levantines due to subsequent admixture (Arabs, and in the case of Palestinians even Africans): this would reduce the inferred Middle Eastern component.

    Estimating admixture percentages in the absence of clear knowledge about parental populations is no easy thing, but the intermediate-leaning-on-Europe status of AJ relative to living Europeans and living Middle Easterners seems to be a pretty secure conclusion.
    ^ This above quote is very important. These genetic studies are a little flawed in that they assume modern-day Jewish populations should have a genome perfectly the same visually as Palestinians, given their oral and religious history. Yet Druze too are considered an ethnic group indigenous to the Levant, yet they also noticably look tremendously different to Palestinians in Behars admixture sheet, perhaps relatively due to inbreeding and genetic isolation. Again also, Jews should not deny their origins outside of Palestine with many coming from Mesoptamia, South Caucasus and Anatolia, therefore this is the trickiest task with assigning Jews an ethnic group to compare to. Over tens of centuries, both Jews and Levantine populations have shifted apart and have experienced their own mutations, admixture, etc. Jews following European influenced cultural norms (obviously with a oriental spin) were far more removed from Arabization and raids, besides the communities found in North Africa.

    All in all, depending what you class for 'European', i think both Eastern Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews could fit on the fringes, near the Cypriots. (as found in Behars study) If anything though, i see Jews more as an ethnic group who challenge such believed genetic distinctions between Europeans and Middle Easterners. They are certainly filling a gap between deep south/south eastern Europeans and Middle Easterners. Yet still they remain closer to the Levant than Turks and Caucasus peoples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    As far as Jews are concerned the relationship exists at least in some cases (I have like 70 Jewish "cousins" at 23adnMe), but it seems that it goes in the opposite direction:



    Analysis of Ashkenazi Jewish genomes (Emerson et al. 2010)

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/08...h-genomes.html



    PNAS doi: 10.1073/pnas.1006538107

    Resolving postglacial phylogeography using high-throughput sequencing

    Kevin J. Emerson et al.


    http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...81107.abstract
    Interesting study...35-55% European ancestry for Ash. Jews...make sense. They're way too European looking to be of predominantly Middle Eastern descent. I guess if you take a bunch of Levantines and mix them with Central/Eastern Europeans they end up clustering with Italians

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    I don't speak for Italians, but we Sicilians [who are often considered Italians unfortunately] have significant Phoenician heritage, and our Greek heritage is largely E1b1b, which would explain why we would cluster with Jews despite virtually no Jewish contribution to our gene pool.

    I'd like to have studies like this done before the Holocaust and before Stalin's purges. Tragic that millions of Eastern Europeans were killed, and then further millions emigrated to the Levant, the United States, et cetera.
    Last edited by alfieb; 2010-08-27 at 08:15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Svin View Post
    Wow, already yet another Jewish genome study! Well, fortunately the results from this study match those of Behars and yet again prove Ashkenazi Jews are Europeanised Levantines. (same as the Sephardi, only perhaps slightly different Euro admix) Thats an impressive sample size, but i think the visual admixture charts shown in Behars study are more comprehensible, therefore its easier to draw up conclusions using that data.



    That wouldn't suprise me, and does seem similiar to Behars findings, but i would be more interested specifically in what kind of European descent? I know Behars hinted at predominantly more South European admix. Also what percentage European descent do the Druze have in this study?



    Of the two hypothesis, the one in bold makes most sense to me. I believe Jewish inbreeding and genetic bottlenecking would occur at a later stage. I believe many modern Jews have absorbed Italians and Greeks to a higher degree than that of Eastern Europeans or Iberians, with conversions taking place during the Roman Empire. I don't deny there is likely a scratch in the genome of majority of the other two populations. The DNAtribes (although once very useless) supports this hypothesis to with its ancestry profile for Ashkenazi Jews, which you can see on their site. Behars study too, shows both Sephardim and Ashkenazim show a significant amount of Mediterranean-like admixture today most pronounced in Sardinians.



    ^ This above quote is very important. These genetic studies are a little flawed in that they assume modern-day Jewish populations should have a genome perfectly the same visually as Palestinians, given their oral and religious history. Yet Druze too are considered an ethnic group indigenous to the Levant, yet they also noticably look tremendously different to Palestinians in Behars admixture sheet, perhaps relatively due to inbreeding and genetic isolation. Again also, Jews should not deny their origins outside of Palestine with many coming from Mesoptamia, South Caucasus and Anatolia, therefore this is the trickiest task with assigning Jews an ethnic group to compare to. Over tens of centuries, both Jews and Levantine populations have shifted apart and have experienced their own mutations, admixture, etc. Jews following European influenced cultural norms (obviously with a oriental spin) were far more removed from Arabization and raids, besides the communities found in North Africa.

    All in all, depending what you class for 'European', i think both Eastern Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews could fit on the fringes, near the Cypriots. (as found in Behars study) If anything though, i see Jews more as an ethnic group who challenge such believed genetic distinctions between Europeans and Middle Easterners. They are certainly filling a gap between deep south/south eastern Europeans and Middle Easterners. Yet still they remain closer to the Levant than Turks and Caucasus peoples.
    The only way to solve this riddle it to make a statictical analysis of the distribution of larger half-identical DNA segments. If Jews mixed with South-Europeans almost 2000 years ago then - I believe - they will be showing large ammount of very small common segments with contemporary Italians and Greeks and relatively few shared fragments with Central&East Europeans (Germans or Slavs). On the other hand if Ashkenazi Jews (the term means by the way "Jews from Scythia") mixed with Eastern Europeans like 1000 years ago (or even later) they will be showing larger common HIRs with Slavs (or Germans) and smaller with Italians/Greeks.

    Am I right or am I wrong?

    If believe that time of counting separate SNPs has ended and someone should tell this to the scientiests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by prototype View Post
    Both Romanians & Poles have been living side by side with Romas and Jews for almost 1000 years. I hear on internet forums both Poles & Romanians denying any inter-mixing of between Romas/Jews and Poles/Romanians, and they claim there was some kind of social barrier preventing them from breeding with one another.

    How can a people who number in the millions, and who were present for nearly 1000 years, not have any significant influence on the Romanian & Polish blood lines? It makes no sense to me. Is there any data that can shed any light on this?
    Uh... because societies in Eastern Europe work in a completely different way than in the West?

    As regards Romania, we simply have a form of caste society, which dictates the "rules" of intermarriage even among different "castes" of Romanians. So it's not only mixing with Gypsies/Jews that is "forbidden" but also mixing with, for instance, Romanians from different parts of the country or other minorities - like Poles if you want.

    According to the 2002 census, 3,671 Poles live in Romania, mainly in the villages of the Suceava region (Polish: Suczawa). There are even three exclusively Polish villages: Nowy Sołoniec (Soloneţu Nou), Plesza (Pleşa) and Pojana Mikuli (Poiana Micului). Poles in Romania form an officially recognised national minority, having one seat in the Chamber of Deputies of Romania (currently held by Gerwazy Longher) and access to Polish elementary schools and cultural centres (known as "Polish Houses").
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_Romania

    Now how does a minority of 3000 people survive in a country of 20 million? Obviously because of social barriers to intermarriage.

    This of course is not to say that intermarriage does not occur. But it's a bit more complex since we then have to deal with the issue of different identities. When it comes to the Jewish Question for instance, some of our most prominent antisemites were Jews, while some prominent Romanians were strongly pro-Jewish. It's one of those complexities you find in East Euro/Oriental societies.

    There has lately been a trend, where complexed rabbis attempt to claim Jewish admixture (or even descent ) for the Romanian population as a way to justify their presence on our territory, but no one takes this seriously.

    Gypsies, on their part, also have a caste society where intermarriage between different groups/clans of Gypsies is often forbidden. So the desire for separation is mutual.

    On the part of Jews though, some even went so far as to set up a clinic to purchase ovules from poor Romanian women for IVF purposes - all in order to mix with White people.

    According to a DIICOT report, Harry Mironescu set up an organised crime group, acting as gynaecologist and "de facto" head of a clinic in Bucharest. He was supported by his son, Yair Miron, the sole associate of the private clinic, and by his connections with medics in Israel, specialists in assisted reproduction. L. Natan, Z. Genia and other persons have been accused.
    Couples from abroad, who could not have children, were brought to Romania for vitro insemination. The cost: 10-15,000 euros. Foreign couples would make available extra consistent sums of money that paid for young Romanian women, aged between 18 and 30, for ovules collection.
    The clinic has been founded by a family of Israeli physicians in 1999. Officially, it performed around 2,000 artificial inseminations so far. The investigations are currently undergoing.
    http://english.hotnews.ro/stiri-buch...m-released.htm

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    Last edited by Baboon; 2010-08-27 at 09:03.
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