Judeans autosomal DNA

[Geto-Thracian]

i fully agree with you...just that SSA's want all ancient ME's to be black, lol!

[jibarodepr]

Some ME do have black admixture, but not all.

[Papa Anodyne]

Some ME do have black admixture, but not all.

And we all know how that came about; it's called the slave trade. SSA is very low among most ME people and nil among some.

I like how Beyoku brings up afros. I've seen Jews with "jewfros." But I never seen a modern study showing Jews have SSA admixture. I've also seen Irishmen with fros', I guess they're Black. OldPret, a Brit, had a fro'. I guess he has a Black ancestor also; absurd. All I see is a misunderstanding of haplogroups and race (while those same people claim race isn't real). If anyone wants to see how goofy Beyoku is just look at the Hitler's Eb1b1 thread and then try to find a study that shows Austrians have SSA admixture.

---------- Post added 2010-09-11 at 16:59 ----------

Hitler found to be "Jewish" based on his AFRICAN Y-Chromosome
All this shows is that Jews are extensively mixed with Africans. That which happened a long time ago does not deduct from the fact that it actually happened.

African is a geographical term. I love how certain people with an agenda will play with geographical terms to hide what they really think. The same people who argue race isn't real but then lump distinct people into a broad geographical term to avoid being forced to defend what can't be defended rationally.

---------- Post added 2010-09-11 at 17:04 ----------

Not surprisingly, the appearance of the man is very similar to that of today's Middle Eastern man. The researchers concluded that he belonged to the Mediterranean branch of the Caucasoid group, scientific terminology for what is known as "white."

However, the woman's appearance was quite surprising. She has a large mouth with a protruding upper lip and a full lower lip. The nose is also prominent with a low bridge. These and other findings led the researchers to determine that while the reconstructed woman was also Caucasoid, she had "equatorial (African)" characteristics.

What was surprising and what wasn't?

However, an Israeli anthropologist researching the question has now made a surprising claim: the subjects of the Kingdom of Judea in the Second Temple Period looked more like black Africans. This theory arose after Prof. Yair Ben David of Tel-Aviv University conducted the first-ever facial reconstruction of its kind.

This is called "sensationalism" and not surprisingly it can't be backed up by anything saidf by other anthropologists or genetic study. Yes, Beyoku, one man's claim means little unless it's supported by other studies as well. Perhaps you can reference a study to support this Israeli anthropologist? People are either naive, delusional, or never spent a moment at a respecatble university where claims need a stronger backing then one anthropologist referenced in a newspaper to sell papers.

[Bandar Qasim]

E1b1b1 being the quintessential marker of the Afroasiatic language family sort of makes sense.

E1b1b1b: Berber languages
E1b1b1c: Semitic languages?
E1b1b1a*: Ancient Egyptian
E1b1b1a1b: Cushitic languages

There's a correlation

[Semitic Duwa]

E1b1b1 being the quintessential marker of the Afroasiatic language family sort of makes sense.

E1b1b1b: Berber languages
E1b1b1c: Semitic languages?
E1b1b1a*: Ancient Egyptian
E1b1b1a1b: Cushitic languages

There's a correlation

True, it fits; but it doesn't mean that other markers can be pushed aside, quite the opposite actually.

[Ekarfi]

E1b1b1 being the quintessential marker of the Afroasiatic language family sort of makes sense.

E1b1b1b: Berber languages
E1b1b1c: Semitic languages?
E1b1b1a*: Ancient Egyptian
E1b1b1a1b: Cushitic languages

There's a correlation

You're right ; ) , but J1 also correlates with some (more likely northern ones) as it is found highly among Semites , Maghrebis , Egyptians , as far as Beja people in eastern coats.

Chadic are caracterized by R-v88

[Doctoris Scientia]

No , if Northern Egyptians looked different overall from southern ones , it's because of their obvious Middle-Easterner ancestries. I can also post quotes which say the opposite of yours but it would be off-topic.

No, you simply don't have any evidence to back your above statement. Northern Egyptians cluster more closer to other African populations in comparison to Southwest Asians and Europeans. Overall, the Ancient Egyptian populations cluster alongside southerly populations, i.e. Nubian's and so fourth. And do not share any commonalities with people in the Levant or elsewhere.

QUOTE(s):
"..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans." (Barry Kemp, "Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation. (2005) Routledge. p. 52-60)

Overall, when the Egyptian crania are evaluated in a Near Eastern (Lachish) versus African (Kerma, Kebel Moya, Ashanti) context) the affinity is with the Africans. The Sudan and Palestine are the most appropriate comparative regions which would have 'donated' people, along with the Sahara and Maghreb. Archaeology validates looking to these regions for population flow (see Hassan 1988)... Egyptian groups showed less overall affinity to Palestinian and Byzantine remains than to other African series, especially Sudanese." (Keita 1993)

2009 study finds the Nubians were ethnically the closest population to the ancient Egyptians not Europeans or Middle Easterners, confirming Egyptologist Frank Yurco's data from the 1980s and 1990s.

Quotes:
"The Mahalanobis D2 analysis uncovered close affinities between Nubians and Egyptians. Table 3 lists the Mahalanobis D2 distance matrix... In some cases, the statistics reveal that the Egyptian samples were more similar to Nubian samples than to other Egyptian samples (e.g. Gizeh and Hesa/Biga) and vice versa (e.g. Badari and Kerma, Naqada and Christian). These relationships are further depicted in the PCO plot (Fig. 2).

The clustering of the Nubian and Egyptian samples together supports this paper's hypothesis and demonstrates that there may be a close relationship between the two populations. This relationship is consistent with Berry and Berry (1972), among others, who noted a similarity between Nubians and Egyptians.

[Ekarfi]

No, you simply don't have any evidence to back your above statement. Northern Egyptians cluster more closer to other African populations in comparison to Southwest Asians and Europeans. Overall, the Ancient Egyptian populations cluster alongside southerly populations, i.e. Nubian's and so fourth.

I don't agree again. Northern Egyptians seem to cluster somehwere between Southwest Asia and Northeast Africa , but obviously closer to Southwest Asia on average. Of course they share some similarities with South Egyptians/Nubians (note that even Nubians have high % of J1 lineages compared to southern populations).I am not denying the African strain of Egypt , just talking about the strong and old Southwest Asian input in the region.

1. Genetic analysis of modern Egyptians reveals that they have paternal lineages common to indigenous North African and to Near Eastern peoples these lineages would have spread during the Neolithic and maintained by the predynastic period. 2. The Egyptian samples [996 mummies] exhibit morphologically simple, mass-reduced dentitions that are similar to those in populations from greater North Africa (Irish, 1993, 1998a–c, 2000) and, to a lesser extent, western Asia and Europe (Turner, 1985a; Turner and Markowitz, 1990; Roler, 1992; Lipschultz, 1996; Irish, 1998a).3. A group of noted physical anthropologists conducted craniofacial studies of Egyptian skeletal remains and concluded similarly that "the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well." A 2006 bioarchaeological study on the dental morphology of ancient Egyptians by Prof. Joel Irish shows dental traits characteristic of North Africans and to a lesser extent Southwest Asian and southern European populations.

But don't turn out this Judean-topic thread into an Egypt one.

[Papa Anodyne]

QUOTE(s):
"..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans." (Barry Kemp, "Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation. (2005) Routledge. p. 52-60)

I googled the above and only find it in "Afrocentric" fourms or websites. So I did the intelligent thing and went to google books. Seems like I can read the book there. A question jumped in my mind: why does it say pages 52-60? Shouldn't it just give one page condsiering the quote is split off from a paragraph? This strikes me as suspicious. So I took parts of that quote and ran it through their search engine. I didn't feel like reading 8 pages. What was quoted didn't come up. That quote above is either from a different book or it's a scam.

What a big surprise.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Jn2...stine.&f=false

[Doctoris Scientia]

I don't agree again. Northern Egyptians cluster somehwere between Southwest Asia and Northeast Africa , but obviously closer to Southwest Asia on average. Of course they share similarities with South Egyptians/Nubians (note that even Nubians have high % of J1 lineage compared to southern populations). I am not denying the strong African strain of Egypt , just talking about the strong and old Southwest Asian input in the region .

1.Genetic analysis of modern Egyptians reveals that they have paternal lineages common to indigenous North African and to Near Eastern peoples these lineages would have spread during the Neolithic and maintained by the predynastic period. 2. The Egyptian samples [996 mummies] exhibit morphologically simple, mass-reduced dentitions that are similar to those in populations from greater North Africa (Irish, 1993, 1998a–c, 2000) and, to a lesser extent, western Asia and Europe (Turner, 1985a; Turner and Markowitz, 1990; Roler, 1992; Lipschultz, 1996; Irish, 1998a). A group of noted physical anthropologists conducted craniofacial studies of Egyptian skeletal remains and concluded similarly that "the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well." A 2006 bioarchaeological study on the dental morphology of ancient Egyptians by Prof. Joel Irish shows dental traits characteristic of North Africans and to a lesser extent Southwest Asian and southern European populations.

But please don't turn out this Jewish-topic into an Egypt one

You started it. I'm simply finishing the convo, which has already been discussed previously. No where does it say Lower Egyptians cluster in between other Africans and Southwest Asians. Ancient Lower Egyptians DON'T show commonality with populations in the Levant and elsewhere in the Middle East, but cluster along side Upper Egyptians and more southerly African populations. period. Who's discussing y-dna... but African y-dna increases from 65% in Lower Egypt, to 80% in Upper Egypt, and 85% in Lower Nubia. J1 likely arose among a population in or very close to Africa, i.e. Yemen. Eurasian admixture only accounts for 5-10% of the
ancestry of the Eastern Sudanese, Eritrean, and Northern Ethiopian population, those same frequencies are likely very similar in regard to Nubia and Upper Egypt. Also, Chadic speakers who possess R1 at ~90%... possess no non-African admixture, and are essentially 100% African. It's obvious that genetic drift was at play if indeed these lineages are "Southwest Asian", since Eurasian admixture dosen't show up among Africans in regard to unbiased studies, like Tishkoff 2009.

In regard to your quote.

"Simplistic "race percentage" models are dubious in Africa which has the highest genetic diversity in the world. That diversity proceeded from deeper sub-Saharan Africa, to East and N.E. Africa, then to the rest of the globe. All other populations, including Europeans and "Middle easterners" carry this diversity which was built into Africa to begin with. Africans thus don't need any "race mix" to look different. Their diversity is built-in and supplied the whole globe. Any returnees or "backflow" to Africa looked like Africans. (Brace 2005, Hanihara 1996, Holliday 2003)."

"Recent work on skeletons and DNA suggests that the people who settled in the Nile valley, like all of humankind, came from somewhere south of the Sahara; they were not (as some nineteenth-century scholars had supposed) invaders from the North. See Bruce G. Trigger, "The Rise of Civilization in Egypt," Cambridge History of Africa (Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 1982), vol I, pp 489-90; S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54.
(Mary Lefkotitz (1997). Not Out of Africa: How Afrocentrism Became an Excuse to Teach Myth as History. Basic Books. pg 242)

Africans have the highest dental diversity
"Previous research by the first author revealed that, relative to other modern peoples, sub-Saharan Africans exhibit the highest frequencies of ancestral (or plesiomorphic) dental traits... The fact that sub-Saharan Africans express these apparently plesiomorphic characters, along with additional information on their affinity to other modern populations, evident intra-population heterogeneity, and a world-wide dental cline emanating from the sub-continent, provides further evidence that is consistent with an African origin model." (Irish JD, Guatelli-Steinberg D.(2003) Ancient teeth and modern human origins: an expanded comparison of African Plio-Pleistocene and recent world dental samples. Hum Evol. 2003 Aug;45(2):113-44. )

Dental studies confirm the data yielded by skeletal and cranial studies. The inhabitants of ancient Egypt, particularly in the formative era on into the early Dynastic ages, cluster more closely with African populations that with Europeans or Middle Easterners. These Nile Valley populations are continuous and of local origin, with no major contemporaneous migration or replacement events.

[quotes:]

"The question of the genetic origins of ancient Egyptians, particularly those during the Dynastic period, is relevant to the current study. Modern interpretations of Egyptian state formation propose an indigenous origin of the Dynastic civilization (Hassan, 1988). Early Egyptologists considered Upper and Lower Egyptians to be genetically distinct populations, and viewed the Dynastic period as characterized by a conquest of Upper Egypt by the Lower Egyptians. More recent interpretations contend that Egyptians from the south actually expanded into the northern regions during the Dynastic state unification (Hassan, 1988; Savage, 2001), and that the Predynastic populations of Upper and Lower Egypt are morphologically distinct from one another, but not sufficiently distinct to consider either non-indigenous (Zakrzewski, 2007). The Predynastic populations studied here, from Naqada and Badari, are both Upper Egyptian samples, while the Dynastic Egyptian sample (Tarkhan) is from Lower Egypt. The Dynastic Nubian sample is from Upper Nubia (Kerma). Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002). In addition, the Badarians have been described as near the centroid of cranial and dental variation among Predynastic and Dynastic populations studied (Irish, 2006; Zakrzewski, 2007). This suggests that, at least through the Early Dynastic period, the inhabitants of the Nile valley were a continuous population of local origin, and no major migration or replacement events occurred during this time.

Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002). A craniometric study found the Naqada and Kerma populations to be morphologically similar (Keita, 1990). Given these and other prior studies suggesting continuity (Berry et al., 1967; Berry and Berry, 1972), and the lack of archaeological evidence of major migration or population replacement during the Neolithic transition in the Nile valley, we may cautiously interpret the dental health changes over time as primarily due to ecological, subsistence, and demographic changes experienced throughout the Nile valley region."

-- AP Starling, JT Stock. (2007). Dental Indicators of Health and Stress in Early Egyptian and Nubian Agriculturalists: A Difficult Transition and Gradual Recovery. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 134:520–528

Southwest Asia is a geographic region... it's population is not static. The population has changed over time and various different components have been introduced.