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The Swedes who moved to Finland in the 13th century (the future Finland-Swedes) kept themselves pretty much to themselves. Both on the West Coast and in the Southern Finland.
The mixed marriages between Finns and Finland-Swedes have been common only during the last decades. Of course they existed also before this but they were rather unusual.
Sorry if this sounds ignorant. But how common was passing? Or just assimilating? I have a Swedish friend that has very distant Finnish ancestry (read: long time ago). Some others more recent (some member or moderator lives in Sweden and has both Swedish and Finnish flags up). Given that Swedes and Finn don't really look much different to my eyes just like the Portuguese aren't very different from Spaniards (with a few exceptions) I don't think there would have been so little intermixing.
As far as I know, lactose intolerance among Swedes, Danes and Norwegians is about 2-4%. What can be the reason for the "purely Scandinavian" Finland-Swedes having quite a higher number than that?
The Finland-Swedes are nevertheless closer to the Swedes than they are to the Finns looking at the frequencies of lactos intolerance. The number for Swedes, Danes and Norwegians is also a mean value, perhaps the number is higher for the landscapes that the future Finland-Swedes emigrated from?
Originally Posted by Karhunkynsi
Utter and total bullshit. You mean that the total genetic composition of Fennoswedes has changed during the last few decades ?
Reality: You have slightly more dna that originates at Sweden than rest of the West Finns. If you draw a pedigree from that you will have 3/4 of your ancestry from West Finnish pool and 1/4 from Sweden.
If you take a good look at that map you will notice that the centrum of Suomen-ruotsalaiset (Finland-swedes) is as distant to centrum of Ruotsi (Swedes), than Italy is to Swedes. Thats how Swedish and isolated from the rest of the Finns you are.
Actually on that map the Finland-Swedes are only close to the Finns from Finland Proper. And these Finns have probably plenty of Germanic blood, memories from old Germanic trading colonies, German burghers in the medieval towns and Swedes who switched language to Finnish.
The Finland-Swedes are nevertheless closer to the Swedes than they are to the Finns looking at the frequencies of lactos intolerance. The number for Swedes, Danes and Norwegians is also a mean value, perhaps the number is higher for the landscapes that the future Finland-Swedes emigrated from?
The lactose tolerant genotype is dominant over the intolerant one. Sort of like how brown eyes are dominant to light eyes. This means that if the Finland-Swedes are mostly Swedes with minor Finnish admix, the Swedish lactose tolerancy would have dominated within the group, and killed the minor intolerant Finnish genes. This happened in Sweden, where larger Finnish groups were assimilated. It supposedly didn't affect Sweden's number, as modern Swedes (and Norwegians by the way), with a significant number of Finnish haplogroups, still have the same low rate of lactose intolerancy as Danes (and Denmark has very minor Finnish admixture, if they even have any).
But yet, the Finland-Swedes still have a significantly higher frequency of lactose intolerance. Why isn't it the same as in Sweden and Norway? Why did this "small assimilation" increase the number of recessive genes so much?
The number is an intermediate between the Swedes and the (Western) Finns, which should support the theory that they are mainly rather a mix of both groups.
Originally Posted by Grynda
Actually on that map the Finland-Swedes are only close to the Finns from Finland Proper. And these Finns have probably plenty of Germanic blood, memories from old Germanic trading colonies, German burghers in the medieval towns and Swedes who switched language to Finnish.
They still cluster away from the Swedes.
Last edited by Viking; 2010-10-21 at 15:16.
Originally Posted by A Finn with experience of anthropology forums
Is that true? I have similar dreams, though about eugenics... I see images and craniums in front of me in the dreams. Words like sterilization, Germanics and others fly around as fragments in my head... Scary stuff that I often dream about.
Then I go up, and look at myself in profile and from the front and in all angles, in all my mirrors that I have mounted up everywhere, and realise my Mongolian heritage and how the Swedes view me. Sometimes I cannot see the difference between myself and a Mongol, if the environment is cloudy.
Actually on that map the Finland-Swedes are only close to the Finns from Finland Proper. And these Finns have probably plenty of Germanic blood, memories from old Germanic trading colonies, German burghers in the medieval towns and Swedes who switched language to Finnish.
Of course they have western, central European, Baltic etc genes. I have never understood this why they cannot have it and what is so special and interestng with this issue. I'm probably never gonna understand this.
Actually on that map the Finland-Swedes are only close to the Finns from Finland Proper. And these Finns have probably plenty of Germanic blood, memories from old Germanic trading colonies, German burghers in the medieval towns and Swedes who switched language to Finnish.
So ? Finns are Finns and Finland-Swedes are much closer to Finns than to Swedes. Burghers were equally German in Swedish side of the gulf btw.
Your original argument was that no-mixing appeared until last two decades or so. Southwest Finns, aka Proper-Finland has very typical Finnish Y- and mtdna distribution. Difference is that hg N1c* is much more typical (~60%) than in rest of West Finland (~40%).
But yet, the Finland-Swedes still have a significantly higher frequency of lactose intolerance. Why isn't it the same as in Sweden and Norway? Why did this "small assimilation" increase the number of recessive genes so much?
From what I've read on the net lactose intolerance only gives symptoms to about half of the people who suffers from it. So there should be lots of people having it without knowing it. Maybe the Finland-Swedes simply have been more examined because they live in a country where lactose intolerance is more common?
Originally Posted by Karhunkynsi
Your original argument was that no-mixing appeared until last two decades or so. Southwest Finns, aka Proper-Finland has very typical Finnish Y- and mtdna distribution. Difference is that hg N1c* is much more typical (~60%) than in rest of West Finland (~40%).
Nja, I talked about almost no-mixing. The fact that the people in Proper-Finland have very typical Finnish Y- and mtdna distribution don't seem to matter much since they seem to cluster almost together with the Finland-Swedes on the map??? As the only Finns who do it?
From what I've read on the net lactose intolerance only gives symptoms to about half of the people who suffers from it. So there should be lots of people having it without knowing it. Maybe the Finland-Swedes simply have been more examined because they live in a country where lactose intolerance is more common?
That is true of course. Not all people with lactose intolerance get symptomes from it. I read that out of the 17% of all Finns with lactose intolerance, 12% suffer from symptomes. It is even said that some people who are classified as lactose tolerant can't drink milk.
In these studies, they always go after genotype (CC-13910), unless they note anything else. It is still 17% of all Finns who are considered lactose intolerant, and 3% of all Danes (and Swedes and Norwegians) who are considered lactose intolerant.
Originally Posted by A Finn with experience of anthropology forums
Is that true? I have similar dreams, though about eugenics... I see images and craniums in front of me in the dreams. Words like sterilization, Germanics and others fly around as fragments in my head... Scary stuff that I often dream about.
Then I go up, and look at myself in profile and from the front and in all angles, in all my mirrors that I have mounted up everywhere, and realise my Mongolian heritage and how the Swedes view me. Sometimes I cannot see the difference between myself and a Mongol, if the environment is cloudy.
Nja, I talked about almost no-mixing. The fact that the people in Proper-Finland have very typical Finnish Y- and mtdna distribution don't seem to matter much since they seem to cluster almost together with the Finland-Swedes on the map??? As the only Finns who do it?
SW Finns are exactly where they should be at "genetic map". They do have significant drag towards Estonia btw. Which is not surprising considering dialect etc.
Finland-Swedes are heteregenous bunch, with two main groups here: a) Fully inside the general Finnish cluster (which includes SW Finns) and b) Outliers of the general Finnish cluster (SW Finns are not outliers), yet clearly closer to Finns than Swedes.
Afaik Finland-Swedes here are rural Ostrobothnian Swedophones because there is clear drag towards Sweden in the samples, which is obviously caused by the Swedish migration to Finland during medieval times. Apparently the immigrants intermingled with the locals right after they stepped to solid ground.
I doubt our southcoast "Swedes" have that big drag towards actual Swedes. Mainly because the language change was not because of immigration and mixing but because of administration&education, which were dominated by Swedish language for centuries.
Saami languages seem to be quite closely related to Mordvian languages. And not only Saami languages, but also Baltic-Finnic languages. I am not sure if Saami languages are closer to Mordvian languages than Baltic-Finnic are
About closeness of Mordvian languages to Baltic-Finnic and Saami languages have been writing many linguists. Right now I can't name their names and works, because I simply don't have time now.
As for closeness of Saami and Mordvian languages I can give one source. It is in Russian language though, so you will need translator.
An Erzyan woman, who was living in Lovozero (Saami village in Russia) is writing her impressions about Saami language. She claims than can understand 40-50% of Saami words. And provides list of words, which are similar between Erzya and Saami languages (these words are written with cyrillic letters though, so you need translator or converter for that). Check here
Originally Posted by Grynda
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