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Thread: Did Europeans introduce metallurgy, wheeled vehicles and horses to China?144 days old

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reason1234 View Post
    Is there any data on Afanasievo phenotypes?

    The main argument I've seen is that the Tocharian language split off early and is centum, and Afanasievo is the only culture that split off and went east at such an early date.

    The Tocharians also seem to have quite a lot in common with Celts, as well as the red hair. If they're not from Afanasievo their origin gets even more perplexing.

    Bell Beakers seem to have more in common with Yamnaya in terms of material culture than with Corded Ware. Maybe some of the Yamnaya, or Yamnaya-like people, possibly those ancestral to the western Bell Beakers, had red hair?



    Isn't EHG partly WHG?
    1st off, yes. 'EHG' is like half WHG-like with the remainder being mostly Ancient North Eurasian like. 'EHGs' are just a genetically clinal population between WHGs and later ANEs like Afontova Gora 3.

    That's not my point though. When we put pure WHGs and pure EHGs into admixture runs attempting to model the ancestry of, "Early Middle Bronze Age steppe" groups, their northern ancestry is almost entirely EHG derived. So basically aside from trivial amounts (~5% or so) the northern ancestry is derived directly from EHGs and not Central or Western European HGs whom were WHG . So basically the immediate ancestry of the Yamnaya and other Steppe EMBA groups was mostly certainly EHG derived.

    Wang et al 2018 showed this real clearly, although this has been known for like 3-4 years now.




    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=49847

    Wang seems to show that later steppe groups (what geneticists call "Late-Middle-Bronze Age Steppe")like the Andronovo/Sintashta/Scrubnaya also show an increase of actual WHG ancestry. So the steppe from the Early Bronze age..to over 1000 years later in the late Bronze age was getting more 'Western' like. Getting more WHG ancestry as well as Neolithic farmer ancestry.

    As for pigmentation of Afanasievo, I dunno...since they're genetically almost indistinguishable from the Yamnaya and also from the same time period i'd say likely they just physically resembled the Yamnaya IMO.

    The Genome Blogger Genetiker has some data on the 4 samples from Allentoft 2015 and they're dark haired and uniformly brown eyed according to him.
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2019-03-12 at 04:32.

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  3. #112
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    So where do you think the Tocharians came from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reason1234 View Post
    So where do you think the Tocharians came from?
    The Pontic Caspian steppe. Their language probably does derive from Afanesievo IMO...just their west Eurasian genetic component will probably be more 'western'..more modern European like, like what we saw with later steppe groups. They'll also probably have some local East Asian like ancestry. My bet is we'll see alot of genes that code for light pigmentation of hair and eyes in them too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    1st off, yes. 'EHG' is like half WHG-like with the remainder being mostly Ancient North Eurasian like. 'EHGs' are just a genetically clinal population between WHGs and later ANEs like Afontova Gora 3.

    That's not my point though. When we put pure WHGs and pure EHGs into admixture runs attempting to model the ancestry of, "Early Middle Bronze Age steppe" groups, their northern ancestry is almost entirely EHG derived. So basically aside from trivial amounts (~5% or so) the northern ancestry is derived directly from EHGs and not Central or Western European HGs whom were WHG . So basically the immediate ancestry of the Yamnaya and other Steppe EMBA groups was mostly certainly EHG derived.

    Wang et al 2018 showed this real clearly, although this has been known for like 3-4 years now.




    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=49847

    Wang seems to show that later steppe groups (what geneticists call "Late-Middle-Bronze Age Steppe")like the Andronovo/Sintashta/Scrubnaya also show an increase of actual WHG ancestry. So the steppe from the Early Bronze age..to over 1000 years later in the late Bronze age was getting more 'Western' like. Getting more WHG ancestry as well as Neolithic farmer ancestry.

    As for pigmentation of Afanasievo, I dunno...since they're genetically almost indistinguishable from the Yamnaya and also from the same time period i'd say likely they just physically resembled the Yamnaya IMO.

    The Genome Blogger Genetiker has some data on the 4 samples from Allentoft 2015 and they're dark haired and uniformly brown eyed according to him.

    Apparently Yamnaya-related ancestry peaks in Udmurts, who are also described as having 'the reddest hair in the world'.

    "Interestingly, the Yamnaya-specific component peaks in Udmurts, who live close to where the Yamnaya samples were collected. This can hardly be a coincidence."

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/0...rtions-in.html

    'The people with the reddest hair in the world'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29950844

    "Many Udmurt people have red hair[15][16], and a festival to celebrate the red-haired people is held annually in Izhevsk since 2004.[17]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udmurt_people

    "In the south the Udmurts have red hair and blue eyes, while in the north they have dark hair and dark eyes."

    https://www.rbth.com/lifestyle/32698...-udmurts-story

    Distribution of red hair:



    The area on the right is Udmurtia.

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    More irrelevant nonsense from Non-Reason 4321.
    METALLURGY CAME FROM ANATOLIA AND THE LEVANT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager View Post
    More irrelevant nonsense from Non-Reason 4321.
    How is it nonsense? Anyway, modern populations are mixed and are the product are 5,000 years of selection since the time of the Yamnaya, along with a significant shift for thousands of years in diet. Udmurts have lots of Yamnaya ancestry, but they have other ancestry too. If Udmurts with a huge Yamnaya component can 5,000 years later can have lots of red hair, why can't Tocharians 3,000 years later?

    Tocharians may be Udmurt like but with an East Asian component too. IMO




    I'm curious to get their genomes.
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2019-03-12 at 16:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    modern populations are mixed and are the product are 5,000 years of selection since the time of the Yamnaya, along with a significant shift for thousands of years in diet. Udmurts have lots of Yamnaya ancestry, but they have other ancestry too. If Udmurts with a huge Yamnaya component can 5,000 years later can have lots of red hair, why can't Tocharians 3,000 years later?.
    Tarim Basin mummies c.1800 BC have red hair.

    So do you think it’s just a coincidence that the people with apparently the highest Yamnaya-related ancestry (Udmurts) have red hair, and that they actually got it from some other source?
    Last edited by Reason1234; 2019-03-13 at 01:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reason1234 View Post
    Tarim Basin mummies c.1800 BC have red hair.

    So do you think it’s just a coincidence that the people with apparently the highest Yamnaya-related ancestry (Udmurts) have red hair, and that they actually got it from some other source?
    Well populations today whom have the palest skin in the world have the highest percentage of WHG ancestry, and WHG when WHGs actually existed had skin pigmentation was probably that of modern Mozabite Berber range. So odd things like that can definitely happen.

    It's possible Yamnaya had some minority red haired, and then high selection happened in those areas. Or it's possible their was heavy selection for phenotypes carried by their other ancestral components.

    I have no idea what populations carried red hair or at what frequency, anyway. But i'm pretty certain that we don't get populations that show modern Northern European phenotypical variation until the major ancestral components mixed with one another, and then there was a unique selection process after that that gave rise to their phenotype. None of the major ancestral groups, when they existed in pure form (WHG, ENF, Yamnaya-EMBA Steppe) looked phenotypically like Northern Europeans.

    I also question how much Yamnaya like component these Uralic groups have, because it's probably just a pseudo Yamanaya component. No population on the planet really carries more than 50-55% Yamnaya like ancestry. Haak 2015 showed in some models Finns and other Uralic groups in Russia get up to 70%, but a significant amount of that is just pseudo Yamnaya component, and when other groups like Siberians are added to the model Finns and Uralic speakers in Russia go down to 50% like other Northern European groups.

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    From Maciamo of Eupedia:

    "the high incidence of red hair among Northwest Europeans (who have the highest percentage of Yamna ancestry) as well as in the Volga-Ural region and in ancient Chinese depictions of the Tocharians from the Tarim Basin strongly suggest that red hair was found among Yamnayans, and that the genes for red hair (which also include some mutations for fair hair) were spread by R1b Indo-Europeans."

    https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/yamna_culture.shtml

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reason1234 View Post
    From Maciamo of Eupedia:

    "the high incidence of red hair among Northwest Europeans (who have the highest percentage of Yamna ancestry) as well as in the Volga-Ural region and in ancient Chinese depictions of the Tocharians from the Tarim Basin strongly suggest that red hair was found among Yamnayans, and that the genes for red hair (which also include some mutations for fair hair) were spread by R1b Indo-Europeans."

    https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/yamna_culture.shtml
    The Tocharian frescoes are from early AD. I don't have a hard time believing later Yamnaya admixed Indo-European speaking people carried high frequency of red hair. Like Bell Beakers, or Late Bronze age Steppe groups or whatever.

    I have a hard time believing the actual Yamnaya or "EMBA Steppe" people in their day and age carried high frequency of red hair. That's all. Much like heavy WHG admixed historical people have light skin but WHG themselves didnt have pale skin.

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