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Thread: "Inventing the whites, what hath fog wrought" by Razib Khan158 days old

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    Btw, It loooks like I was wrong about Sardinians being closer to the 4 Mycenanean samples we have than modern Greeks. I guess the Myceneans were Eastern shifted enough to be closer to modern mainland Greeks.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....n)-on-GEDMatch!

    But It does look like Sicilians/Southern Italians and various Jewish groups are.
    @tauromenion aka Sikiliot how come you never post here anymore. I miss you dude. This place is an Afrocentric site almost now. Come back.
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2019-05-22 at 06:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    So you think they will be virtually Sintashta or LMBA Steppe like, genetically speaking? I'll believe that when I see it. Just like i'll believe in @NonFingo 's "Negroid-Sub Saharan Natufians" when I see it.
    The smoking gun (small numbers of mtDNA L2) has already been found among PPN. L2 is not North African (it's specifically West/Central African), so we can't say it's a natural companion of E1b1b. We must acknowledge an additional (more southern) wave that supplemented the E1b1b people already in contact with the Levant. Only a matter of time before L2 is found among Natufians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    The smoking gun (small numbers of mtDNA L2) has already been found among PPN. L2 is not North African (it's specifically West/Central African), so we can't say it's a natural companion of E1b1b. We must acknowledge an additional (more southern) wave that supplemented the E1b1b people already in contact with the Levant. Only a matter of time before L2 is found among Natufians.

    Interesting, L2 SSA lineage that definitively can't be traced to slaves
    We Wuz Kerma Kangz delusion..........

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    You @beyoku @HabariTess @Roseai are the ones claiming people that have nothing to do with them.I'm a Cushitic descendant of the Sudan and an heir to all it's civilizations while you descend from Ebola stricken negroes from the Congo forest that eat albinos in order to gain superpowers lmao

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Btw Reason...you were asking about Angel.

    The real quote from Angel (1971)

    "My subjective and extremely speculative survey suggests that origins of the population were mostly local, derived from the Neolithic and later pre-Greek populations, with the Near East and Upper Paleolithic Central and Eastern Europe as ultimate sources. But altogether too sketchy data for the period before 2,000 B.C. Plus an analysis of the Middle Bronze Age do suggest a double intrusion of peoples who must have introduced Indo-European languages : from the east (originating in Iran and the steppe country) and from the north (also originating in the steppe country and from among Balkan mountain peoples)."


    Not bad for a pre genomic 50 YO study. The Guy was good.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=B1...ective&f=false

    Anyway, you already know all this stuff, so stop playing dumb, Billy.



    So you think they will be virtually Sintashta or LMBA Steppe like, genetically speaking? I'll believe that when I see it. Just like i'll believe in @NonFingo 's "Negroid-Sub Saharan Natufians" when I see it.

    J.L. Angel, ‘Social Biology of Greek Culture Growth', 1946:

    “the first Greek-speakers, probably with a proto-Ionian dialect, are assumed to have invaded in force at the start of M.H. [Middle Helladic]. The E.H. [Early Helladic] culture is identified as the introduction of pre-Greeks ethnically kin to Minoans and Cycladic islanders and perhaps derived from south-west Anatolia. Neolithic dialects are unknown. […]

    Archaeology suggests (northern?) intrusion for Neolithic B after the (Near Eastern?) Neolithic A settlers. After the E.H. pre-Greek infiltration and 2000 B.C. Greek invasion, Minoans came as merchants, Achaeans wandered down from north of Boeotia, and Dorians and other northwest Greeks brought destruction to the Isthmian area during the second millennium B.C. […]

    Third millennium Mediterranean (A plus B) dominance over Dinaroid Iranian and Alpinoid minorities changes about 2000 B.C. to dominance of Nordic-Iranians over Alpinoid and Basic White contrastingly balanced minorities. This change is significant enough to suit invasion, and is followed in L.H. [Late Helladic] III times by overwhelmingly Mediterranean (A plus B) combination with minor Alpine and other (D and E) influence, returning toward the third millennium pattern. In the Early Iron Age significant rise in all three Alpinoid types together (F, E, C) fits intrusion and shows contrast in an even balance of all six types. Classical increase in long-headed types (A, B, and especially D) blended with mixed Alpinoids again returns toward the L.H. III norm. Slight Dinaroid plus Alpine dominance over balanced minorities in the Roman period is followed by Byzantine counterbalance of gracile Mediterranean against increasing Alpine, and by the modern mixture which is mild Alpinization of the Roman period combination. […]

    females tend to resemble males of the preceding period, and in Middle Bronze and Roman times they definitely contrast with the contemporaneous male series. This lag in change may reflect predominance of male rather than female intruders in certain period groups as well as female stability.

    Thus from M.H. to L.H. III and from Submycenaean to Classical times reduction in variability and in heterogeneity, following intrusion of new types and ethnic groups, occurs parallel with growth and integration of culture, and accompanies a racial change in the direction of the preceding phase (E.H. and L.H. III respectively), showing absorption of intruders by hybridization. Thus major and minor processes of racial, ethnic, and cultural fusion or integration occur in the latter part of the Middle Bronze Age (L.H. I-II) and end of the Early Iron Age as part of the growth process leading up to Mycenaean and Classical periods of achievement respectively. This process is much clearer between Middle Bronze Age and Mycenaean to historic times than between Early Iron Age and Classic times, since the “Dorian” disturbance was relatively less far reaching than that following the prehistoric entrance of the Greeks.”


    His description of the ‘Nordic-Iranian’ type:

    “The long and high Nordic-Iranian (D) vault is well-filled, often long ovoid, muscular, with high sloping forehead and peculiarly deep occiput. High rectangular face combines rugged deep-chinned jaw, long high palate, sloping orbits, and big, saliently aquiline nose. Close resemblance to Bajuvar and Frankish Reihengraber, Anglo-Saxons, and Hissar III North Iranians fit various “Nordic” and “Iranian” trends within the type.”

    https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.w....48.4.02a00020

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Btw Reason...you were asking about Angel.

    The real quote from Angel (1971)

    "My subjective and extremely speculative survey suggests that origins of the population were mostly local, derived from the Neolithic and later pre-Greek populations, with the Near East and Upper Paleolithic Central and Eastern Europe as ultimate sources. But altogether too sketchy data for the period before 2,000 B.C. Plus an analysis of the Middle Bronze Age do suggest a double intrusion of peoples who must have introduced Indo-European languages : from the east (originating in Iran and the steppe country) and from the north (also originating in the steppe country and from among Balkan mountain peoples)."

    Your quote fits with what I said earlier:

    "from the archaeological evidence it seems very likely to me that there was a migration/invasion around/after 2000 BC of chariot riding warriors related to Sintashta and maybe other contemporaneous steppe or carpathian cultures."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reason1234 View Post
    J.L. Angel, ‘Social Biology of Greek Culture Growth', 1946:

    “the first Greek-speakers, probably with a proto-Ionian dialect, are assumed to have invaded in force at the start of M.H. [Middle Helladic]. The E.H. [Early Helladic] culture is identified as the introduction of pre-Greeks ethnically kin to Minoans and Cycladic islanders and perhaps derived from south-west Anatolia. Neolithic dialects are unknown. […]

    Archaeology suggests (northern?) intrusion for Neolithic B after the (Near Eastern?) Neolithic A settlers. After the E.H. pre-Greek infiltration and 2000 B.C. Greek invasion, Minoans came as merchants, Achaeans wandered down from north of Boeotia, and Dorians and other northwest Greeks brought destruction to the Isthmian area during the second millennium B.C. […]

    Third millennium Mediterranean (A plus B) dominance over Dinaroid Iranian and Alpinoid minorities changes about 2000 B.C. to dominance of Nordic-Iranians over Alpinoid and Basic White contrastingly balanced minorities. This change is significant enough to suit invasion, and is followed in L.H. [Late Helladic] III times by overwhelmingly Mediterranean (A plus B) combination with minor Alpine and other (D and E) influence, returning toward the third millennium pattern. In the Early Iron Age significant rise in all three Alpinoid types together (F, E, C) fits intrusion and shows contrast in an even balance of all six types. Classical increase in long-headed types (A, B, and especially D) blended with mixed Alpinoids again returns toward the L.H. III norm. Slight Dinaroid plus Alpine dominance over balanced minorities in the Roman period is followed by Byzantine counterbalance of gracile Mediterranean against increasing Alpine, and by the modern mixture which is mild Alpinization of the Roman period combination. […]

    females tend to resemble males of the preceding period, and in Middle Bronze and Roman times they definitely contrast with the contemporaneous male series. This lag in change may reflect predominance of male rather than female intruders in certain period groups as well as female stability.

    Thus from M.H. to L.H. III and from Submycenaean to Classical times reduction in variability and in heterogeneity, following intrusion of new types and ethnic groups, occurs parallel with growth and integration of culture, and accompanies a racial change in the direction of the preceding phase (E.H. and L.H. III respectively), showing absorption of intruders by hybridization. Thus major and minor processes of racial, ethnic, and cultural fusion or integration occur in the latter part of the Middle Bronze Age (L.H. I-II) and end of the Early Iron Age as part of the growth process leading up to Mycenaean and Classical periods of achievement respectively. This process is much clearer between Middle Bronze Age and Mycenaean to historic times than between Early Iron Age and Classic times, since the “Dorian” disturbance was relatively less far reaching than that following the prehistoric entrance of the Greeks.”



    https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.w....48.4.02a00020
    Nordic-Iranian morphologies were already present in the pre Greek populace. Pure Minoan-like Pre Greeks carried Nordic Iranian morphologies. It's just that when Indo-European (Greek) came, Nordic-Iranian types as well as Mixed Alpine types increased. This is how Angel's system worked. An increase or fluctuation of percentages of types..he thought he could infer admixture events or migrations.



    In fact, it appears Nordic-Iranians are more present in the pre Greek populace than when Dorians came to Southern Greece (which is after the Mycenaean period and in the Iron age). There Alpine and Dinaric Mediterranean types form the dominant blend.



    His description of the ‘Nordic-Iranian’ type:


    “The long and high Nordic-Iranian (D) vault is well-filled, often long ovoid, muscular, with high sloping forehead and peculiarly deep occiput. High rectangular face combines rugged deep-chinned jaw, long high palate, sloping orbits, and big, saliently aquiline nose. Close resemblance to Bajuvar and Frankish Reihengraber, Anglo-Saxons, and Hissar III North Iranians fit various “Nordic” and “Iranian” trends within the type.”
    Big deal, doesnt say anything about how genotypically a Nordic-Iranian morpologal type in Greece will be. Since Basic White morphologies resemble Chalcolithic Palestian norms I guess Basic Whites were Palestinians living in the Greek mainland with 50% Natufian like ancestry? Err no. That's not how it works.

    You also totally ignored the genotypical data from Laz 2017. Which shows It's basically impossible for the Proto Greeks to be a Northern European type population. At best a hybrid between an extremely Southern European type population and a Northern European population. Or else, as I said, Steppe LMBA would have won out instead of Europe LNBA and shown higher Z scores.

    As I said, the Proto Greeks were mixed population. But honestly, I don't give a shit about the "Proto Greeks". They will never be able to be identified specifically with any certainty.

    The earliest historic Greeks are the Mycenaneans, I'll never believe in fully or near fully "LMBA Steppe like people" buried in the the Mycenanean Greek shaft graves until prove by full genome sequencing. Till then they're as real as the Easter Bunny.
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2019-05-22 at 20:31.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Nordic-Iranian morphologies were already present in the pre Greek populace. Pure Minoan-like Pre Greeks carried Nordic Iranian morphologies. It's just that when Indo-European (Greek) came, Nordic-Iranian types as well as Mixed Alpine types increased. This is how Angel's system worked. An increase or fluctuation of percentages of types..he thought he could infer admixture events or migrations.



    In fact, it appears Nordic-Iranians are more present in the pre Greek populace than when Dorians came to Southern Greece (which is after the Mycenaean period and in the Iron age). There Alpine and Dinaric Mediterranean types form the dominant blend.

    Big deal, doesnt say anything about how genotypically a Nordic-Iranian morpologal type in Greece will be. Since Basic White morphologies resemble Chalcolithic Palestian norms I guess Basic Whites were Palestinians living in the Greek mainland with 50% Natufian like ancestry? Err no. That's not how it works.

    You also totally ignored the genotypical data from Laz 2017. Which shows It's basically impossible for the Proto Greeks to be a Northern European type population. At best a hybrid between an extremely Southern European type population and a Northern European population. Or else, as I said, Steppe LMBA would have won out instead of Europe LNBA and shown higher Z scores.

    As I said, the Proto Greeks were mixed population. But honestly, I don't give a shit about the "Proto Greeks". They will never be able to be identified specifically with any certainty.

    The earliest historic Greeks are the Mycenaneans, I'll never believe in fully or near fully "LMBA Steppe like people" buried in the the Mycenanean Greek shaft graves until prove by full genome sequencing. Till then they're as real as the Easter Bunny.

    I don’t know to what degree the shaft grave men were mixed, my point was that I think they came from these c.2000 bc chariot-riding intruders.

    Angel’s claim for an invasion involving ‘Nordic-Iranian’ types comes from the rapid increase and dominance of this type. This also fits with other data. Btw where is your table from? The numbers in the study I quoted are a bit different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    You also totally ignored the genotypical data from Laz 2017. Which shows It's basically impossible for the Proto Greeks to be a Northern European type population. At best a hybrid between an extremely Southern European type population and a Northern European population. Or else, as I said, Steppe LMBA would have won out instead of Europe LNBA and shown higher Z scores.
    Laz 2017 doesn't show that. For starters they say so themselves:

    "The amount of steppe ancestry is about ~13% when the Early/Middle Bronze Age group (“Yamnya/Afnasievo/Poltavka-related”) is used as a source (Steppe_EMBA), which is in harmony
    with our finding of ~7% EHG ancestry in Mycenaeans, as this group has about half of its ancestry
    from the EHG. The proportion is slightly higher when the Middle/Late Bronze Age
    (Steppe_MLBA) group (“Srubnaya/Andronovo/Sintashta-related”) is used as a source, and higher still
    when the Late Neolithic/Bronze Age populations from mainland Europe (Europe_LNBA) are used as
    a source, reflecting the fact that these have substantial European/Anatolian Neolithic-related
    ancestry which dilutes their EHG-related ancestry further. We cannot distinguish which of these
    populations was a source for Mycenaeans (whether there was a migration directly from the steppe,
    from populations related to the Early, Middle/Late Bronze Age steppe, or an indirect migration from
    central Europe from steppe-influenced populations that were formed there during the Late/Neolithic
    Bronze Age)."

    https://media.nature.com/original/na...re23310-s1.pdf


    Europe_LNBA includes a whole range of different samples including ones which are like northern europeans and others that are like southern europeans, it's not a hybrid population. I need more info on what it is exactly.



    Last edited by Reason1234; 2019-05-22 at 23:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reason1234 View Post
    I don’t know to what degree the shaft grave men were mixed, my point was that I think they came from these c.2000 bc chariot-riding intruders.

    Angel’s claim for an invasion involving ‘Nordic-Iranian’ types comes from the rapid increase and dominance of this type. This also fits with other data. Btw where is your table from? The numbers in the study I quoted are a bit different.
    I agree with you, we can clearly see that Nordic-Iranian morphologies increase in the Middle Bronze Age. As do the Mixed Alpine types. These are types which are based on averages of more Northernly populations. I think Angel is right that there was an influx from the North during this period. This was all but confirmed by Laz 2017, no? Steppe ancestry wasn't there prior. The Late Neolithic samples from the Peloponnese in Matheison et al 2017 are basically Minoan like. (no Steppe, Mostly Anatolian farmer with secondary CHG). Earlier farmers are pure Anatolian farmer. So yeah.

    Nordic-Iranians never became that dominant, they ranged from 30-33% in the Mycenaeans. It's not like they go up to 75% or something. They then fall to about 10% in the era of the Trojan war and the coming of the Dorians. Funny thing is, I think the Dorians will be more Steppe influenced than the Mycenaneans despite way less Nordic-Iranian morphologies. Nordic-Iranians They then make a resurgence in the classical era going up to 25%. Dorians are supposed to be from Epirus which is modern NW Greece and Southern Albania.

    And actually Angel did have a morphological breakdown of the Mycenanean shaft graves in a study, which I don't have accesses to. The study is cited as

    Angel, J. L. 1973 Human Skeletons from Grave Circles at Mycenae. In Ho Taphikos Kyklos V Ton Mykenon [The Grave Circle B of Mycenae], by Mylonas, G. E., pp. 379–397. The Archaeological Society of Athens, Greece.

    You ever get access do the study, let me know. I don't know where to find it.

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...C28279B1029252


    As for my map, it's from

    SOURCE : Angel, J. Lawrence, 1944, A racial analysis of the ancient Greeks: An essay on the use of morphological types, American Journal of Physical Anthropology

    Link


    Europe_LNBA includes a whole range of different samples including ones which are like northern europeans and others that are like southern europeans, it's not a hybrid population. I need more info on what it is exactly.
    I'm almost certain It's a pooling of Corded Ware Samples, Northern-Central European Bell Beaker Samples, and the Balkan samples from Maiethison et al 2017 (The genomic history of SE Europe). I can go on Anthrogenica and ask, If I have to. I'm sure those guys will know.

    I didnt say it was a hybrid population. But If a pooling of of Northern + Southern European samples fits slightly better (shares more drift and has a higher Z score in a formal test) than a pooling of pure Northern European samples (like Corded Ware samples alone, or Steppe LMBA alone). What does that tell you? Use logic.

    If I understand correctly, the using F4 statistics, The higher the Z score, the more it's telling you that you're looking at something real and not bullshit. For instance, if I were to formally model the British as a mix of say ancient Chinese and ancient Neolithic Anatolian farmers...the Z score will be much lower (probably way in the negative) than If I were to model them as Yamnaya steppe pastoralists and ancient Neolithic Antolian farmers. The lower the Z score tells me it's not an effective model. It's not real.
    @NonFingo . Help me out here. Is there something i'm missing when understanding Dstats and F4?
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2019-05-23 at 00:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Game Theory View Post
    Interesting, L2 SSA lineage that definitively can't be traced to slaves
    I wouldn't put it past some, to try to argue that anyway. But yeah, the old age (~15kya) of the expansion of L2a1 subclades towards the East Africa, the Sahara (and apparently Natufians) means serious researchers (at least) will know better.

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