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Thread: Philistines—The Jews’ Ancient Enemies—Were Europeans, DNA Confirms74 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlessedbyHorus View Post
    When did I say it was ALL due to the slave trade/morsicos? These cats say all dark skinned people in North Africa are due to slavery while also ignoring recent European migrants. You can't have it ONE way which is my point.

    And KEB mtDNA haplogroups are DIFFERENT from modern North Africans.
    Fair enough. I agree there's a double standard at work there.
    Knowledge is consciousness of reality. Reality is the sum of the laws that govern nature and of the causes from which they flow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlessedbyHorus View Post
    Everyone notice how this clown constantly ignores the material I posts while repeating the same shit. Its a pattern that I always notice. Also note that the material I post have never changed.


    Who's angry? You wanna talk shit so I'm going to return fire and burn your ass Abdul. Notice how your tone changed now.


    That's not the point Abdul. My point was that you were denying the presence SSA lineage during prehistoric times in the Neolithic in the Maghreb. Now you're changing your position in that "well most SSA lineage were due to slavery."
    No I've never denied this But some ssa lineages were totally absent among some north african populations today it's way more widespread because of the trans-saharan slave trade and I will repost my evidence :

    "A proportion of 1/4 to 1/2 of North African female pool is made of typical sub-Saharan lineages, in higher frequencies as geographic proximity to sub-Saharan Africa increases. The Sahara was a strong geographical barrier against gene flow, at least since 5,000 years ago, when desertification affected a larger region, but the Arab trans-Saharan slave trade could have facilitate enormously this migration of lineages." "The interpolation analyses and complete sequencing of present mtDNA sub-Saharan lineages observed in North Africa support the genetic impact of recent trans-Saharan migrations, namely the slave trade initiated by the Arab conquest of North Africa in the seventh century. Sub-Saharan people did not leave traces in the North African maternal gene pool for the time of its settlement, some 40,000 years ago."
    source : https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.co...71-2148-10-138

    I know it hurts you but these are facts. Period.

    "The results of this study show that there is a native genetic component that defines North Africans. In-depth study of these markers shows that the people inhabiting North Africa today are not descendants of the earliest occupants of this region fifty thousand years ago, but shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were a group of populations that already lived in the region around thirteen thousand years ago. Furthermore, this local North African genetic component is very different from the one found in the populations in the south of the Sahara, which shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were members of a subgroup of humanity who left Africa to conquer the rest of the world and who subsequently returned to the north of the continent to settle in the region"
    source : https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1002397

    People like me were already in North africa 13 000 years ago so don't try to portray us as invaders.

    here read it :



    Quote Originally Posted by BlessedbyHorus View Post
    More importantly Abdul why do you ignore this?

    http://smbe-2016.p.asnevents.com.au/...abstract/35210

    I'm going to keep slapping this in your face.
    Ok no problem let's analyse it : First of all your quote agree with me about the number of black slaves who were brought in NA around 9/10 millions so way more than the white slaves

    Secondly : "In this study, we present the genomic analysis of two human individuals from a cave site in the area of present-day Morocco which were directly dated to the Medieval period." key words : "two" and "medieval period" so for the moment nothing really meaningful.

    next : " Both individuals could represent a Medieval African population without population continuity to modern-day populations. Alternatively, both Mediterranean Europe and Southern Africa are known source regions in the Arab slave trade, thus they could potentially represent the offspring of slaves of different origin."

    so where are your evidence ? these are suppositions and what's your point ? I've never denied that some white slaves were brought in Morocco so that they find two mulattoes in morocco isn't really meaningfull It doesn't really inform us about the number of black or white slaves ....again provide something better.

    Slaves were not always castrated for example the soldiers of the black guard of moulay ismail weren't castrated they even had their own children :
    Black Guard descended from tribes of the south brought to Morocco from southern Africa, who were settled with their families in a special colonies, at Mechra er-Remel, to have children and to work as indentured servants.
    Hoiberg, Dale H., ed. (2010). "'Abīd al-Bukhārī". Encyclopædia Britannica. I: A-ak Bayes (15th ed.)

    and they were more than 150 000....where do you think all those black went ? the answer :







    Quote Originally Posted by BlessedbyHorus View Post
    Abdul you are a retard. What does the source age have to do with anything? Many material states the same thing so your point? I'm not going to allow you to side step anymore. Fetch me a valid source that states 10 million Blacks were brought in. More importantly a good amount of the Black slaves were castrated. Try again. Most of North African's mtDNA is European and MOST of it has to do with the effects of slavery/the expelled Moriscos. Like I said you're out of your element. But why do you ignore these images during that time?



    But more importantly you claim the European slave trade had no effect?


    http://smbe-2016.p.asnevents.com.au/...abstract/35210
    Age doesn't matter ?! Ok no problem why don't you accept the claim of ibn Battuta then about the number of slaves ? :



    Also about those images it's ironic because that's what you just said recently : "Funny how you clowns only accept ancient writers only when it seems they agree with you."

    Wtf do you seriously think that riffians from the XIX and XXth century looked black ....

    These are pics about them from the begining of The XXth century :






    You really should take courses about orientalism and the colonial propaganda because you clearly don't know why they represented them so dark.

    french propaganda to belittle moroccans :




    Quote Originally Posted by BlessedbyHorus View Post
    ^^You probably trace your origins in North Africa back to the Umayyad caliphate with your paternal lineage.
    Let me laugh pls. ( even if that was true you still have to deal with all my other berber ancestors because I'm less ME shifted than the average berber.)


    Quote Originally Posted by BlessedbyHorus View Post
    No Abdul how about you study West African history instead of trying to come off as an authority. How about you look up the Kanem empire which stretched into parts of southern Libya.


    Not only that Berber cities like Aoudaghost were captured by Ghana empire. Timbuktu was captured from the Tuaregs and Sanhaja by the Mali empire under Mansa Musa. Berber nomads were who crossed the Sahara were taxed heavily and used as cattle to move exports. They were even used as soldiers to do the dirty work like here for example when they thrashed your ancestors.

    Pekka Masonen: “Trans-Saharan Trade and the West African Discovery of the Mediterranean World”

    And what the fuck you are talking about your people started the trade, Abdul? The bolded is even more fictitious. Your people were just mere nomadic traders. The Ghana empire existed prior to the Trans-Sahara Trade and was already prosperous. If anything Ghana was the one who initiated the trade since they had the resources everyone needed and were the ones financing it.


    --M. Ma³owist (1966). The Social and Economic Stability of the Western Sudan in the Middle Ages. Source: Past and Present, No. 33, (Apr., 1966), pp.3-15. Published by: Oxford University Press


    --Merry E. Wiesner 2002. Discovering the Global Past

    ^^^The GROWTH of the Mediterranean NOT the other way around. So what the fuck are you talking about? If North African Berbers were the ones who started it then why didn't they grow as rich as those Western Sudanese states? Where was their Mansa Musa? Not only that it was your greedy ancestors like al-Mansur(who you brag about) who fucked up the trade finally destroying it causing BOTH regions to lose economically after he ran to white mommy and daddy for help to invade Songhay. So again what the fuck are you talking about that these West African empires should owe their thanks to Berbers? You're a funny one Abdul.
    Lies as usual but nothing suprising coming from a new world complexed negro who dreams of a glorious past :

    Southern libya, aoudaghost, Timbuktu were all considered to be part of the Bilad as Sudan dumbass and even ethnically people who live there are not "berber" but more black/negroid than anything else. Berbers like me were never used by west africans it's more the opposite :

    Among the part-time and full-time nomads the interracial relationship is more complicated. The Ait Atta for example, who pasture their sheep ion the middle Atlas in summer and in the Dades Valley to the south in winter, have their castles and gardens in Dades valley. There they delegate the agricultural work to caste of Negroid serfs, the Haratin. Other Haratin are found in oases all along the northern fringe of the Sahara, and indeed throughout the desert.The camel nomads, particular the famed Tuareg, or People of Vel, are divided into castes of nobles, imghad, or camel-breeding dependents who also have their Haratin, and slaves. The merchant communities of the great oases, like the Mzabites of Ghardaia, foster endogamy as they belong to a schismatic sect of Islam, that of the Khawarij, or Kharijites. They to have their gardens tilled by Haratin.
    From "THE LIVING RACES OF MAN" by Carleton S. Coon, 1965

    And that ghana empire was richer and appeared before the trans-saharan trade is meaningless it's still my ancestors who dug all these water wells along the saharan roads it's well known that this was started by ibadites especially with the kingdom of Tahert. It's not a coincidence if almost all these west african empires appeared during this era but of course by pride you will deny this but stay delusional I don't care. That some west african empires had a lot of gold mines is meaningless without the trans-saharan trade context. Ok you have gold then what ??


    "The Ghana empire existed prior to the Trans-Sahara Trade" ---> not really
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghana_Empire

    And your quotes are totally useless in this context : yes you had gold so what ? plenty of "Primitive" civilizations had more natural ressources than some advanced civilization but it's still useless if they don't interact with each other.

    Look at those "empires" who all appeared when the trans-saharan trade started or later :
    - Ghana empire : 700–c. 1240
    -kanem-bornou empire : c. 700–1380
    -Songhai empire : c. 1464–1591
    -mali empire : 1230–1670
    -Benin Empire : 1180–1897

    And so on ...but according to you it has nothing to do with us yes sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlessedbyHorus View Post
    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=50448
    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=50724

    No offense but both threads reek of insecurity. Talk shit and I'll raise the pressure.
    So where are your threads about me wanting to pass for a european ? You just posted two random threads.
    Last edited by NassBean; 2019-08-05 at 23:04.
    "Without doubt, Publius Cornelius, when you shall have a view of Africa from the sea, the reduction of your province of Spain will appear to you to have been a mere matter of sport and pastime." Titus-Livus, XXVIII,42

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    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    Can you post the full quote(s)? In that quote you posted it seems like Camps is trying to distance them from SSA populations. He seems to be talking about people native to North Africa. But I could be wrong.

    But my main point was that your Camps quote is not helping you. You are an outlier in terms of the features Camps mentioned, and Taforalt and IAM are not. Do you deny that?
    here the whole page :



    and here the previous page where he explicitly say that they were mediterraneans :




    If you have problem to understand it I can help you.

    and what about this :



    so iberomaurusians predates berbers and are part of our dna so if even them were not black how could their descendents be melanoderm? I will not even talk about KEB and IAM.
    "Without doubt, Publius Cornelius, when you shall have a view of Africa from the sea, the reduction of your province of Spain will appear to you to have been a mere matter of sport and pastime." Titus-Livus, XXVIII,42

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    Quote Originally Posted by El-Maestro View Post
    1. Actually, read the study that HabariTess posted (which I posted earlier in the thread but couldn't be comprehended for some reason) about the biological distances. The Garamantes clustered with western Saharans/subsaharans first.
    I did read it (and actually re-posted the link to the paper). Which is why I clearly said, that based on that paper (at least), they appeared to "morphologically lean towards having negroid affinities" (somewhat paraphrasing, but that's pretty much the gist of what was stated---don't feel like going back to look).

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Maestro View Post
    2. I already stated that the upperbound estimate of African V88 is roughly of 9 thousand years old! the clade is about 13 thousand years old.

    3. I'm not not making the attempt to measure the amount of African vs "Eurasian" admixture based on current proportions. that's always messy. What I'm saying is that using their proportions to support the notion that they were one way before admixture is faulty. And even if it weren't, I wouldn't use a population with marked evidence of addition Eurasian Ancestry within the last 3 thousand years! Look at the image I posted before, notice how neighboring chadic populations have much earlier dates for their Admixture? that's hint of the Age V88 integrated within the region (And it might be older which I can explain in depth why if wan't).
    I think you misunderstood the query. I wasn't asking you how old you thought V88 is (it's definitely been in Africa for a long time and likely diverged in the sahara---anyone attempting to suggest otherwise is a dumbass). I was asking you how old you thought Villabruna related R1b1a-L754 is (from which V88 downstreamed from)? R1b1a's presence in Africa is old as shit bruh. The question was more or less rhetorical.

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Maestro View Post
    At best you can say the Toubou ancestors remained half ANA, and half Mediterranean HG, for over 3 thousand years(Which is hard to believe) but this population or a similar one still went on to SSA Creating more or less the pure negros, so I don't understand the blow back.

    4. This whole debacle is about one side denying the relevance of Aboriginal African ancestry (despite geopolitical location)... So it's not me you should berate with the semantics... you homeboy is dumbing you down.
    I don't think that's what he's doing. English isn't his first language, and sometimes the point doesn't get conveyed the way that he's looking to convey it. He obviously knows that the deep lineage (detected in taforalt) has a stronger degree of relatedness to other african populations, rather than non-africans. He just doesn't consider it "sub-saharan." There's obviously an ancient link, and I've acknowledged it in the past (so has he).

    Quote Originally Posted by Truthcentric View Post
    I say the question should be, how did the lighter-skinned admixed people in coastal Northwest Africa become culturally Amazigh? We all know the Amazigh languages share a linguistic heritage with ancient Egyptian, Chadic, Cushitic, and Omotic that most likely had its genesis somewhere in northeastern Africa. We can infer from this that proto-Amazigh must have spread to the coastal Maghreb from somewhere further south and east. For all anyone knows at the moment, the Garamantes could trace their language along with most of their "North African" ancestry from ancestral Amazigh who had settled in the central Sahara prior to their brethren's moving north of the Atlas Mountains.

    Regardless, it seems more likely to me that the first Amazigh would have been "black" people and that the more Eurasian-admixed ones north of the Atlas only picked up the Amazigh language and cultural identity later.
    Proto-berber is very young in age retard. Proto-berber's emergence likely coincides with the DAWNING of the late capsian industries of the middle neolithic, (those of Ifri n'Amru Moussa and the like,) that ultimately gave way to the first berber-speaking cultures of the bronze age (Kelif el Boroud).

    You realize WHO it is that shares the most common drift with the pre-historic KEB culture right? You understand that there is DIRECT continuity between KEB and (most) modern berbers correct? KEB was notably differentiated from taforalt (late iberomaurusians) and IAM (late capsians).

    EVEN in the EXTREMELY MOTHERFUCKING unlikely scenario that the berber language were super ancient in age, and coincided with late iberomaurusian industries (taforalt) of the terminal pleistocene. Taforalt wasn't "black" dip shit, they were clearly at an intermediate point genetically. And actually drift closer to modern berbers (who carry decreased frequencies of the same autochthonous deep lineage taforalt carried), than they do "blacks."

    This is WHO Y'ALL co-siging @El-Maestro ???

    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    There were no chariots in the fourth millennium BCE. And you're kind of undermining yourself. IAM, Taforalt, Natufians, etc. would have been melanoderms. The terms "negroid" and "melanoderm" don't exclude ancient North Africans, but they do exclude you and other coastal North Africans.
    What do late stone age industries have to do with what we're talking about? By the late neolithic, lighter pigmented skin wouldn't have been an unusual phenomena. Additionally, morphologically speaking, there's a degree of continuity between taforalt/IAM and KEB. The latter group were basically (on average) just mildly lighter versions of the former group (many modern coastal NAs are swarthy anyways). There's a reason that despite some habeshas and somalis can be dark brown skinned, they can look like darker skinned versions of north africans.
    Last edited by Tsarcastic; 2019-08-05 at 23:03.

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    Ghana empire : 700–c. 1240
    -kanem-bornou empire : c. 700–1380
    -Songhai empire : c. 1464–1591
    -mali empire : 1230–1670
    Worth noting that all of the above claimed to have been founded by foreigners from north africa or the middle east.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reason1234 View Post
    Worth noting that all of the above claimed to have been founded by foreigners from north africa or the middle east.
    Actually I'm surprised because I've just verified and even the wiki articles show that you're right ...I feel bad for these aframs.
    "Without doubt, Publius Cornelius, when you shall have a view of Africa from the sea, the reduction of your province of Spain will appear to you to have been a mere matter of sport and pastime." Titus-Livus, XXVIII,42

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    Quote Originally Posted by NassBean View Post
    here the whole page :



    and here the previous page where he explicitly say that they were mediterraneans :




    If you have problem to understand it I can help you.

    and what about this :



    so iberomaurusians predates berbers and are part of our dna so if even them were not black how could their descendents be melanoderm? I will not even talk about KEB and IAM.

    So according to Camps the horse was introduced to Egypt around 1600 BC by the Hyksos, spreading later across North Africa. This is when the Equidians started to appear in the Sahara. I suspect the people there before may have included a small number of archaic (negroid?) hunter-gatherers - the 'ethiopian' troglodytes described by Herodotus, and some pastoralists closer to Sergi's type II.
    Last edited by Reason1234; 2019-08-05 at 23:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reason1234 View Post
    So according to Camps the horse was introduced to Egypt around 1600 BC by the Hyksos, spreading later across North Africa. This is when the Equidians started to appear in the Sahara. I suspect the people there before may have included a small number of archaic (negroid?) hunter-gatherers - the 'ethiopian' troglodytes described by Herodotus, and some pastoralists closer to Sergi's type II.
    No he says that the horse was introduced to North africa slightly before the hyksos invasion
    "Without doubt, Publius Cornelius, when you shall have a view of Africa from the sea, the reduction of your province of Spain will appear to you to have been a mere matter of sport and pastime." Titus-Livus, XXVIII,42

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    yep, my mistake.

    However he says it's well known in Egypt from 1600 BC after which it spreads across North Africa. This matches with the Hyksos occupation of Egypt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsarcastic View Post
    I did read it (and actually re-posted the link to the paper). Which is why I clearly said, that based on that paper (at least), they appeared to "morphologically lean towards having negroid affinities" (somewhat paraphrasing, but that's pretty much the gist of what was stated---don't feel like going back to look).
    The nubian samples in your quote were divorced from western saharans and subsaharans in morphological kinship. Of the samples pooled they clustered just about the farthest from the Garamantes. The western Africans were the closest, you didn't portray that understanding with your initial response.

    I think you misunderstood the query. I wasn't asking you how old you thought V88 is (it's definitely been in Africa for a long time and likely diverged in the sahara---anyone attempting to suggest otherwise is a dumbass). I was asking you how old you thought Villabruna related R1b1a-L754 is (from which V88 downstreamed from)? R1b1a's presence in Africa is old as shit bruh. The question was more or less rhetorical.
    Okay.


    I don't think that's what he's doing. English isn't his first language, and sometimes the point doesn't get conveyed the way that he's looking to convey it. He obviously knows that the deep lineage (detected in taforalt) has a stronger degree of relatedness to other african populations, rather than non-africans. He just doesn't consider it "sub-saharan." There's obviously an ancient link, and I've acknowledged it in the past (so has he).
    I'm not buying that excuse no more... yall came with that before and I backed off. But he went and done more research to reassert his BS with seemingly no self reflection... There's a reason why his still doesn't understand something as obvious as the connection between early V88 carriers and the Blacks he's dissing.

    Proto-berber is very young in age retard. Proto-berber's emergence likely coincides with the DAWNING of the late capsian industries of the middle neolithic, (those of Ifri n'Amru Moussa and the like,) that ultimately gave way to the first berber-speaking cultures of the bronze age (Kelif el Boroud).

    You realize WHO it is that shares the most common drift with the pre-historic KEB culture right? You understand that there is DIRECT continuity between KEB and (most) modern berbers correct? KEB was notably differentiated from taforalt (late iberomaurusians) and IAM (late capsians).

    EVEN in the EXTREMELY MOTHERFUCKING unlikely scenario that the berber language were super ancient in age, and coincided with late iberomaurusian industries (taforalt) of the terminal pleistocene. Taforalt wasn't "black" dip shit, they were clearly at an intermediate point genetically. And actually drift closer to modern berbers (who carry decreased frequencies of the same autochthonous deep lineage taforalt carried), than they do "blacks."

    This is WHO Y'ALL co-siging @El-Maestro ???
    Chill, not so fast... Their's a VERY high chance that there isn't direct continuity between KEB and Modern North Africans. (Which is why so many models either fail or is force fitted in recent studies or online.)
    -Only one individual belong to a native haplogroup.
    - Their discovered haplogroups are in very minor frequency among north Africans.
    - In comparison to the guanches(Who show straight up continuity in lineage, culture and Autosomal makeup) they have elevated Neolithic European in respects to their IAM-like ancestry, and lack the ubiquitous steppe ancestry in all sampled North Africans.
    - And going into the chalcolithic, their material culture was very non-African (As in North African).... I would caution associating them with direct continuity into modern Berber ancestry and culture.... The KEB probably didn't even speak berber or any of it's proto forms.

    Not to speak for him, but I think Truthcentric speaks of the cultural exchange that brought forth contemporary Amazigh. With the language and culture traveling from the East and the EEF populations absorbed from the north. We all know that people like the those found at El_Toro didn't bring Berber culture with them from Europe. And we know what/how the early Capsian populations "looked" like in terms of skin tone. So I don't think he's saying anything bizarre there.

    @Tsarcastic
    By the way look at the two idiots now... This is why these north African debates happen... It's not like I (or we maybe) give a shit about contemporary Amazigh, but these misconceptions about the North African Diaspora will ultimately result in them usurping west African history... Now, Soninke/Dyula and sanhaja are now invading, dynastic MENAs lol...
    Last edited by El-Maestro; 2019-08-05 at 23:56.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    Depends which prehistoric North Africa you mean. There's a preprint here saying that Neolithic North Africans (you know, the ones who replaced the hunter-gatherers there), were fully West Eurasian. Makes sense.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/09/21/191569

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