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Thread: R1a1a7-M458; from Poland with love3805 days old

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    Molecular Biologist Sevastopol's Avatar
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    What are all those red dots in the Kaukazez?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sevastopol View Post
    What are all those red dots in the Kaukazez?
    Sample sites.

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    There seems to be some very interesting interplay between R1a1a7 and I2a2b.



    Last edited by Polako; 2009-11-11 at 16:10.

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    Junior Member Jarl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    No, judging by the frequencies of R1a reported in this article, it seems the haplogroup as a whole comes from West Asia.

    But R1a1a7 is a very recent subclade which probably originated in Poland, most likely with the early Slavs. It's certainly not 10,000 years old like this report claims, because it's almost entirely confined to heavily settled Slavic areas. It's very rare in Western Europe, where obviously older subclades dominate.
    I was thinking about it. Seems like Y-chromosome diversity among Poles is highest. Now this is rather very unlikely if we come to think about it in the light of the "allochtonic" theory of Slavic ethnogenesis. I have never been a proponent of this theory, but it seems to me untangible. If ancestors of Polish Slavs should have been newcomers to the area and a relatively fresh off-shoot from the paternal Dnieper Slav population, then most certainly they would not posses the highest diversity of the most abudant Slavic Y-chromosome. By definition they would represent a founder group whose genetic diversity constituted a fraction of the total paternal population diversity. This seems not to be the case. It seems to be exactly the opposite.

    In this case it is necessary to revisit the old autochtonic theory. Particularly as proposed by Polish, Ukrainian an Russian scholars: Kostrzewski, Hensel, Kocka, Sedov, Oblomski, Pobol, Artamonov, Baran and Terpilovski. According to this theory Slavs and Balts originated from the common Trzciniec cultural horizon. Balts from Sosnica culture, and Slavs from West and East Trzciniec. Most modern scholars connect the beginnings of the Slavic Zarubintsy-Kiev cultures to the spread of Pommeranian culture from the Vistula Basin during Iron Age, about 500 BC. The Pommeranians gradually displace the Milogrady population, now believed to be Eastern Baltic. Pommeranian influence is particularly visible among the Zarubintsy "Prypec" group from Polesie. Milogrady and Zarubintsy cultures contiued to exist side by side for some period.

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    Looks like highest concentrations are found in Belarus, not Poland.
    Slavs originated in the marshes of Ukraine/Belarus so to say this haplogroup arose in Poland is just dumb. Sure it may have spread west-ward, but it's foreign to Poland since it originated elsewhere.
    Last edited by Sevastopol; 2009-12-01 at 18:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sevastopol View Post
    Looks like highest concentrations are found in Belarus, not Poland.
    No. Highest frequency is in Poland, which you can find out here:

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2009194x4.pdf

    And anyway, it is not the frequency but the diversity of the haplotypes that characterises the population of origin. R1a1a7 most likely arose in the Vistula basin. Which you can find you here:

    http://www.gwozdz.org/PolishClades.html

    and here:

    http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Gwozdz2.pdf

    Briefly, R1a1a7* is one new part. R1a1a7 is the new M458 haplogroup. R1a1a7* includes what I have been calling P type and N type here.

    Although there are a number of reasons why the percent of Poland samples at Ysearch may be difficult to interpret as a percent Polish, there is value to compare haplotypes, since the difficulties should be proportional for all haplotypes. Strong evidence is presented below that P type is common in Poland and rare elsewhere. On this basis, the 42% of P type samples on Ysearch with Poland as the paternal origin in provides a measure of how well Ysearch evidence for high concentration in Poland can be extended to other haplotypes. In boldface is used to indicate a haplotype that has 30% or greater of the samples of Polish origin on Ysearch, as an indication of concentration in Poland. Nine of the top 48 haplotypes passed the 30% test. has the top six. includes four of the twelve haplotypes with six or five samples, those with more than 20% Polish Origin at Ysearch. Sample sizes as small as six or five are, of course, suspected of being just statistical fluctuation."


    Slavs originated in the marshes of Ukraine/Belarus
    Who says so? Most Russian and Ukrainian archeologists disagree.

    so to say this haplogroup arose in Poland is just dumb. Sure it may have spread west-ward, but it's foreign to Poland since it originated elsewhere.
    Id suggest you be more careful with epithets. I think you should get acquainted with the literature on the subject before leaping to definite conclusions. Feel free to ask if you don't know where to start from.

    Anyway. The map alone (posted at the very beginning of this thread) quite blatantly suggests Poland has the highest concentration of R1a1a7. And if you still feel in doubt then a handful of quotations from Underhill should do you no harm:

    http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache...&hl=en&ct=clnk
    The highest frequency of haplogroup R1a1a7 (over 30%) is observed in Central and Southern Poland. Frequencies higher than 10% occur among Western and Eastern Slavic populations whereas elsewhere in Europe, including Southern Slavic groups, the frequency of the derived M458G allele decreases rapidly away from its frequency peak that coincides broadly with the overall R1a1a frequency maximum in Poland (Figures 1 and 2). The R1a1a*(xM458) chromosomes on the other hand are less frequent in Poland and display frequency maximums in Belarus and southwest Russia (Supplementary Table S2). Analysis of associated STR diversity profiles revealed that among the R1a1a*(xM458) chromosomes the highest diversity is observed among populations of the Indus Valley yielding coalescent times above 14 KYA (thousands of years ago), whereas the R1a1a* diversity declines toward Europe where its maximum diversity and coalescent times of 11.2 KYA are observed in Poland, Slovakia and Crete. As islands such as Crete have been subject to multiple episodes of colonization from different source regions, it is not inconsistent that R1a1a* Td predates the date of its first colonization by the first farmers approximately 9 KYA.38 Also noteworthy is the drop in R1a1a* diversity away from the Indus Valley toward central Asia (Kyrgyzstan 5.6 KYA) and the Altai region (8.1 KYA) that marks the eastern boundary of significant R1a1a* spread (Figure 1, Supplementary Table S4.). In Europe, Poland also has the highest R1a1a7-M458 diversity, corresponding to approximately an 11 KYA coalescent time (Supplementary Table S4). Other populations in Europe exhibit declining diversity when sampled at increasing distance away from Central Europe (Figure 2). Westward of the Rhine overall R1a a frequency is low, signaling a genetic boundary with R1b varieties.39 However, the patterns of currently observed Y-chromosome diversity in East/Central Europe are unlikely to be explained solely by population movements of the last century.
    Read... and learn. And as for the "marshes of Polesie" hypothesis its been dead for the past 20 years, since Sedov, Rusanova and Terpilovski proved that the oldest Prague-Korchak settlements (Kodyn, Bakota) date to late IVth early Vth century from Podolia and Northern Romania. A view partly supported by Florin Curta, Parczewski and many other leading archeologists.

    I would also suggest reading more about the models of early Slavic culure in Poland - particularly the Sukow-Dziedzice-Szeligi culture and the Feldberg and Tornow groups. All of which present strong Przeworsk influeneces and at the same time cannot be derived from Prague-Korchak. The origin of Sukow-Dziedzice is currently the subject of a heated debate among scholars specialising in Early Medieval Slavonic archeology. Many suggest continuity and direct descent from Przeworsk culture - particularly from the Dobrodzienska group. This became a real possibility after recent discoveries have been made in Greater Poland by archeologists from Poznan Uni - Prof. Makiewicz and Dr Skowron. They proved that Przeworsk settlements existed until VII century (Beznazwa, Podloziny, Zlota, Konarzewo, and more) alongside with Sukow-Dziedzice sites. What is more there is a pronounced simplification of the late Przeworsk ceramic forms found in these settlements which approach Prague type, and are very similar if not the same as Sukow ceramics.

    Now it would be also beneficial to your knowledge if you could educate yourself upon the subject of the "Presov" culture in Slovakia which has strong ties with both Kiev and Przeworsk cultures and the same time. Oh! And one more thing. Before calling anything "dumb", think twice... Thats it for now...




    P.S.

    Could the mod, please merge this post with the previous post (still waiting for the approval)?
    Last edited by Ozrage; 2009-12-02 at 16:27. Reason: merged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sevastopol View Post
    Looks like highest concentrations are found in Belarus, not Poland.
    I'm curious how you worked that out, since there's obviously a massive hole in R1a1a7 frequency in both Belarus and much of Ukraine.

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    Some further reading about the geopraphic spread and ethnic origins of HG R1a.
    R1a is thought to have been the dominant haplogroup among the Indo-European speakers who evolved into the Indo-Iranian, Mycenaean Greek, Macedonian, Thracian, Baltic and Slavic branches.

    The most likely origin of the Proto-Indo-Europeans lies in the Kurgan culture (7000-3000 BCE) and the subsequent Yamna culture (3500-2200 BCE), between modern Ukraine and south-west Russia. Their expansion is linked to the domestication of horses in the Eurasian steppes, and the invention of the chariot.

    The western branch


    The first expansion of R1a took place with the westward diffusion of the Corded Ware (or Battle Axe) culture (3200-1800 BCE) from the Yamna homeland. This resulted in R1a being the dominant haplogroup in the northern half of Eastern Europe nowadays, like in Poland (56% of the population), Ukraine (50%), Belarus (45%), Russia (40%), Slovakia (40%), Latvia (40%), Lithuania (38%) and the Czech Republic (34%)

    The Germanic branch of Indo-European languages probably inherited more from the R1b cultures, although R1a is likely to have arrived earlier in Scandinavia, during the Corded Ware period. R1a people would have mixed with the pre-Germanic I1 aborigines to create the Nordic Bronze Age (1800-500 BCE). R1b would have reached Scandinavia later as a northward migration from the contemporary Hallstatt culture (1200-500 BCE). The first truly Germanic tongue could have been a blend of Hallstatt Proto-Celtic and the Corded-Ware Proto-Slavic with a few pre-Germanic loan words. The fact that present-day Scandinavia is composed of roughly 40% of I1, 20% of R1a and 40% of R1b reinforces the idea that Germanic ethnicity and language had acquired a tri-hybrid character by the Iron Age.

    The Corded Ware culture was followed by the Trzciniec culture (1700-1200 BCE) and the Lusatian culture (1300-500 BCE) in modern Balto-Slavic countries.

    Historically, no other part of Europe was invaded a higher number of times by R1a steppe peoples than the Balkans. Chronologically, the first R1a invaders came with the westward expansion of the Corded Ware culture (from about 3200 BCE), then the Mycenaean invasion (1600 BCE), followed by the Thracians (1500 BCE), the Illyrians (around 1200 BCE), the Huns and the Alans (400 CE), the Avars, the Bulgars and the Serbs (all around 600 CE), and the Magyars (900 CE), among others. These peoples originated from different parts of the Eurasian steppes, anywhere between Eastern Europe and Central Asia, which is why such high STR diversity is found within Balkanic R1a nowadays. It is not yet possible to determine the ethnic origin for each variety of R1a, apart from the fact that about any R1a is associated with tribes from Eurasian steppe at one point in history.

    The eastern branch


    The eastern branch of the R1a steppe people was the Andronovo culture (2300-1000 BCE), around modern Kazakhstan, which correspond to the Indo-Iranian branch of languages. Their migration to the south have resulted in high R1a frequencies in southern Central Asia, Iran and the Indian subcontinent. The highest frequency of R1a (about 65%) is reached in a cluster around Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and northern Afghanistan. In India, 15 to 45% of the population is R1a, depending on the region and caste. Over 70% of the Brahmins (highest caste in Hindusim) belong to R1a1, due to a founder effect.
    ~ http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origin...rope.shtml#R1a

    Interesting site by the way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozrage View Post
    Some further reading about the geopraphic spread and ethnic origins of HG R1a.

    ~ http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origin...rope.shtml#R1a

    Interesting site by the way.
    I dislike eupedia. I makes several claims that doesn't seem to backed up by any evidence; such as I1 coming to Scandinavia before R1a1, or the hypothetical R1a1a spilt, which one should be able to see within Str-Clustering.

    I think most of the site is pure speculation (including many statements presented as facts such as frequency tables).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Johnsen View Post
    ...
    You may very well be right about that. I'm not familiar with the site. They actually have a disclaimer on the top of the source I mentioned.
    The information about the origin and ethnic association of haplogroups on this website should not be read as hard facts, but, as is often the case in science, as a model in constant evolution based on the present knowledge and understanding (of the authors).
    Still interesting IMO.
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