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Thread: Indo-European substratum in Afro-Asiatic [split] //mod2542 days old

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    Default Indo-European substratum in Afro-Asiatic [split] //mod

    Quote Originally Posted by George1 View Post
    Dolgopolsky on the two homelands of PIE
    A classic study of the problem, (...)
    Do you have any link to this study?

    EDIT: Something interesting: SEVERAL ANCIENT EGYPTIAN NUMERALS ARE COGNATES OF «INDO-EUROPEAN» AND PROTO "INDO-EUROPEAN” EQUIVALENTS

    EDIT 2: I have found an overview of the IE and Semitic links by Polish author: Indo-European and Semitic languages.
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2012-07-31 at 23:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    Do you have any link to this study?

    EDIT: Something interesting: SEVERAL ANCIENT EGYPTIAN NUMERALS ARE COGNATES OF «INDO-EUROPEAN» AND PROTO "INDO-EUROPEAN” EQUIVALENTS

    EDIT 2: I have found an overview of the IE and Semitic links by Polish author: Indo-European and Semitic languages.
    The Egyptian and Indo-European numerals article seems serious, but it is in fact pseudo-scientific nonsense, and done wrong. Sounds more like some March of the Titans nonsense. Also, he doesn't demonstrate by sound laws how these Egyptian numerals are derived from Indo-European languages. He just points to "similarities". While some numerals may be similar in ancient Egyptian and various Indo-European languages, one has to prove that the similarities are actual, real cognates, and not words that look similar as a result of linguistic convergent evolution.

    For example, Dumézil argued that Varuna and Uranus perhaps are the same god, and their names indeed sound quite similar, and the deities have similar attributes, but David Anthony pointed out that according to comparative linguistics, Uranus and Varuna are not derived from the same name:

    “The comparative method cannot prove that two words are not related, but it can fail to produce proof that they are. For example, the Greek god Ouranos and the Indic deity Varuna had strikingly similar mythological attributes, and their names sound somewhat alike. Could Ouranos and Varuna be reflexes of the name of some earlier Proto-Indo-European god? Possibly—but the two names cannot be derived from a common parent by the rules of sound change known to have operated in Greek and Old Indic. Similarly Latin deus (god) and Greek théos (god) look like obvious cognates, but the comparative method reveals that Latin deus, in fact, shares a common origin with Greek Zéus.8 If Greek théos were to have a Latin cognate it should begin with an [f] sound (festus ‘festive’ has been suggested, but some of the other sounds in this comparison are problematic). It is still possible that deus and théos were historically related in some irregular way, but we cannot prove it.”
    — Anthony, David W., The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World, ISBN: 069114818X, pp. 30-31

    So, if the author of this study wants to meet scientific standards and not be remembered as another Arthur Kemp, he has to demonstrate how these Egyptian numerals are derived from proto-Indo-European and how they changed into the words they are today. He also has to show that these alleged Indo-European-like Egyptian numerals were not there in reconstructible proto-Afro-Asiatic numerals, in order to further support his case. Moreover, if his hypothesis is correct, other words of Indo-European origins should be found in ancient Egyptian and Coptic.

    I have yet to read the article on Semitic and Indo-European, but I'll comment on it later.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2012-08-01 at 13:40. Reason: clarify
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    I was under the impression it was the other way round, and that their was an Afro-Asiatic substrate in Indo-European. Perhaps their was a mutual diffusion of words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zakar-Baal View Post
    I was under the impression it was the other way round, and that their was an Afro-Asiatic substrate in Indo-European. Perhaps their was a mutual diffusion of words.
    Well, there is a Semitic substratum in Indo-European, mostly some loanwords like taurus (tjur in Swedish). Depending on the linguist, the Semitic substratum varies in extent; some linguists like Theo Vennemann would even say there's a Semitic superstratum in Germanic. That may be the case.

    In any case, I'm not convinced there ever was any Indo-European substratum in Egyptian. Maybe in the later periods when the Greeks, Persians and subsequently Romans conquered Egypt, but not when Egypt had its independent rule.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2012-08-14 at 09:13.
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    “A wise man makes his own decisions; an ignorant man follows public opinion.” ― Chinese proverb

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    “The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.” ― Socrates

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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Brilliant. The infamous Elias. Finally a chance to speak to you personally.

    Well, there is a Semitic substratum in Indo-European, mostly some loanwords like taurus (tjur in Swedish).
    Is the possible Semitic substratum now widely accepted then?

    In any case, I'm not convinced there ever was any Indo-European substratum in Egyptian. Maybe in the later periods when the Greeks, Persians and subsequently Romans conquered Egypt, but not when Egypt had its independent rule.
    It seems virtually impossible, considering there were no Indo-European civilisations within proximity to ancient Egypt at the time period (at least none that were significant enough to possibly influence their language).

    I realise it's very difficult to quantify the age of a language family, and that in actual fact if you look at it in a non-linear way obviously there isn't really an oldest language, however in a linear way isn't Afro-Asiatic considerably older than the Indo-European family?

    Semitic substratum varies in extent; some linguists like Theo Vennemann would even say there's a Semitic superstratum in Germanic.
    The old Atlantic Language theory eh? I am not sure what to make of it to be honest. It's pretty fascinating if it's true. This may come across as a bit pseudo-scientific, and don't worry I realise the preposterous nature of this following statement but: have you ever noticed how Semitic sounding certain Irish names are for example Maher, Hassan or Adair. I know that if there is a Semitic substrate in insular Celtic, Surnames are far to modern for any influence to manifest in them. However it's food for thought isn't it? Here is a list of surnames btw: http://www.johngrenham.com/links/sur...rnames_a.shtml I don't know perhaps it's just me but a lot of them give off a very Semitic vibe.

    OFF-TOPIC- Sorry for being a bit brash about this: I'm not sure if you got my email, but is there anyway I can escape this post moderation process. It's kind of frustrating as my replies often get missed in topics because its usually dead by the time my post gets approved lol. No disrespect to the moderation team of course, I realise the difficulty in managing a forum like this. Any way no worries if there isn't I'll wait like anyone else if I have to .

    EDIT: Wait - possibly disregard the OFF-TOPIC part, this post seems to have went though immediately.

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