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Thread: >100,000 year old AMH found in East Asia3155 days old

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    Default >100,000 year old AMH found in East Asia

    http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...86107.abstract

    Here is the abstract:

    The 2007 discovery of fragmentary human remains (two molars and an anterior mandible) at Zhirendong (Zhiren Cave) in South China provides insight in the processes involved in the establishment of modern humans in eastern Eurasia. The human remains are securely dated by U-series on overlying flowstones and a rich associated faunal sample to the initial Late Pleistocene, >100 kya. As such, they are the oldest modern human fossils in East Asia and predate by >60,000 y the oldest previously known modern human remains in the region. The Zhiren 3 mandible in particular presents derived modern human anterior symphyseal morphology, with a projecting tuber symphyseos, distinct mental fossae, modest lateral tubercles, and a vertical symphysis; it is separate from any known late archaic human mandible. However, it also exhibits a lingual symphyseal morphology and corpus robustness that place it close to later Pleistocene archaic humans. The age and morphology of the Zhiren Cave human remains support a modern human emergence scenario for East Asia involving dispersal with assimilation or populational continuity with gene flow. It also places the Late Pleistocene Asian emergence of modern humans in a pre-Upper Paleolithic context and raises issues concerning the long-term Late Pleistocene coexistence of late archaic and early modern humans across Eurasia.
    So much for all humans coming from Africa ~70,000 years ago. Looks like they are going to have to push the timeframe for the OOA migration back a good bit. Any thoughts on this?
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    No one ever said that some Homo Sapiens couldn't have left Africa even before the first massive wave out of that continent. If humans really did reach East Asia that long ago they had to be assimilated afterwards by the next wave coming out of Africa 30,000 years after.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rochefaton View Post
    So much for all humans coming from Africa ~70,000 years ago. Looks like they are going to have to push the timeframe for the OOA migration back a good bit. Any thoughts on this?
    That was utter and total bullshit from the beginning. I simply can not understand how the "geneticists" refused to acknowledge the existance of Skhul/Qafzeh hominids.

    Our species was out Africa allready 120.000 before zodiac. It was those haplogroup tree builders who insist that humans (as us) left Africa only 60.000 years ago. They are wrong, dead wrong.

    Perhaps the current surviving paternal and maternal haplogroup-trees reach Africa in that timeframe (which I doubt) but it is zero proof that AMH's were not Out-Of-Africa much much earlier.

    I found it strange that geneticist think they can ignore conclusions of physical anthropology when they postulate their theories.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skhul_and_Qafzeh_hominids

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    Interesting --- why does it seem like the authors 'tip toe' around the conclusions or hypotheses they form in the abstract (based on the wording)

    Quote Originally Posted by Karhunkynsi View Post
    That was utter and total bullshit from the beginning. I simply can not understand how the "geneticists" refused to acknowledge the existance of Skhul/Qafzeh hominids.

    Our species was out Africa allready 120.000 before zodiac. It was those haplogroup tree builders who insist that humans (as us) left Africa only 60.000 years ago. They are wrong, dead wrong.

    Perhaps the current surviving paternal and maternal haplogroup-trees reach Africa in that timeframe (which I doubt) but it is zero proof that AMH's were not Out-Of-Africa much much earlier.

    I found it strange that geneticist think they can ignore conclusions of physical anthropology when they postulate their theories.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skhul_and_Qafzeh_hominids
    I've always heard that these were a lineage of modern humans that simply did not survive.

    To be honest, I'm not that shocked - it seems we're forever altering our theories, but that's the process of science for ya.

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    Humans were in western Asia 90 000-100 000 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azvarohi View Post
    Humans were in western Asia 90 000-100 000 years ago.
    Yes, but they were dismissed as failed colonists of Eurasia. With the new evidence of AMHs in East Eurasia over 100,000 years ago, it is going to be harder for people to argue that both the AMHs in West and East Eurasia died out without contributing to the modern human gene pool while the AMHs in Africa survived to colonize the rest of the world.

    If these AMHs did give birth to modern-day Eurasians it wouldn't really change the fact that all humans came from Africa; it would only mean we have been way off on the timeframe.
    Last edited by Rochefaton; 2010-10-26 at 23:55.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rochefaton View Post
    Yes, but they were dismissed as failed colonists of Eurasia. With the new evidence of AMHs in East Eurasia over 100,000 years ago, it is going to be harder for people to argue that both the AMHs in West and East Eurasia died out without contributing to the modern human gene pool while the AMHs in Africa survived to colonize the rest of the world.
    For me, the "OoA-period" rather represent technological innovations, that together with the withdrawal of other hominid species allowed for the AMH to expand with such fierce determination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azvarohi View Post
    For me, the "OoA-period" rather represent technological innovations, that together with the withdrawal of other hominid species allowed for the AMH to expand with such fierce determination.
    I saw it as several successive waves OOA, over period of veeery long time. Not as one time event.

    First wave was significantly earlier than the proposed 60.000 years. At the Eurasian side there was allready another set of our ancestors who the first traditional OOA or / ROOA-period migrants met, the Neanderthals.

    Mixing occurred, as the latest data seem to indicate. Wellcome back multipolar hypothesis!

    If Homo Neanderthalis is our direct ancestor, like physical anthropology has claimed for a long time, then there is straight link all the way to Homo Cepranensis and Homo Erectus. Thus there would be direct genetic link all the way to the absolute first OOA wave of Homo Erectus/Ergaster, over million years ago.

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    Interesting find. I wonder what the mtDNA would be of those remains, since L3 is dated to only 60.000 years.
    That means those remains found in China could be L3'4'6*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandar Qasim View Post
    Interesting find. I what the mtDNA would be of those remains, since L3 is dated to only 60.000 years.
    That means those remains found in China could be L3'4'6*
    Remember that haplogroup dates are done on data of current humans. It is possible that this specimen either had a extinct haplogroup or a haplogroup that exists today, but that particular line within that haplogroup isn't found these days.

    Mungo Man, if his mtDNA proves to be authentic (something many doubt) had a haplogroup within the "human sphere" but outside of those descendant from "mtDNA-Eve".

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