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Thread: Horse genetics and the Indo-European and Altaic expansions2794 days old

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by annihilus View Post
    The elders in my village still remember the beautiful white mare my grandfather owned. I am second gen not to own a horse

    The same can be done with dogs too. There was a study done some time a go that showed the mtdna of finnish dogs is not the same as the ancient dogs from finland. If I can find it I'll post a link.

    I fell off a mule once, I have been in a couple of car crashes but this was worse
    Allthough I do not understand what did you mean by your sentence.

    The domestic dog mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA)-gene pool consists of a homogenous mix of haplogroups shared among all populations worldwide, indicating that the dog originated at a single time and place. However, one small haplogroup, subclade d1, found among North Scandinavian/Finnish spitz breeds at frequencies above 30%, has a clearly separate origin.We studied the genetic and geographical diversity for this phylogenetic group to investigate where and when it originated and whether through independent domestication of wolf or dog-wolf crossbreeding.

    We analysed 582 bp of the mtDNA control region for 514 dogs of breeds earlier shown to harbour d1 and possibly related northern spitz breeds. Subclade d1 occurred almost exclusively among Swedish/Finnish Sami reindeer-herding spitzes and some Swedish/ Norwegian hunting spitzes, at a frequency of mostly 60–100%. Genetic diversity was low, with only four haplotypes: a central, most frequent, one surrounded by two haplotypes differing by an indel and one differing by a substitution. The substitution was found in a single lineage, as a heteroplasmic mix with the central haplotype.

    The data indicate that subclade d1 originated in northern Scandinavia, at most 480–3000 years ago and through dog-wolf crossbreeding rather than a separate domestication event. The high frequency of d1 suggests that the dog-wolf hybrid phenotype had a selective advantage.
    Last edited by Tuohikirje; 2011-03-26 at 19:09.
    "From the wolves within the thickets, from the roarings of the pine-tree, from the burrows of the fox-dog, art thou coming from these places?"

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  3. #12
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    To bolster my previous point… cars are measured in 'horsepower'.

    So the replacement of horse, by car, becomes more evident.

    Perhaps there is a (genetic) link between men and their horses… and car preferences?

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    This is interesting, I've always thought horse obssesions were genetic. My aunt devoted her whole life to horses, she owns a farm and does dressage and my grandmother on that side loved riding horses too but didn't own any. From my birth, I have always felt an emotional attachment to horses. When I was 3-4, everything I played with was a "nay nay" I rarely played with baby dolls or anything else. I had a huge horsey stable where I would collect all these different horses and divide them into "horse families" and they took on human personalities and had all of these adventures. For christmases and birthdays I couldn't think of anything else I wanted other than a new nay nay to add to my stable or new saddles and bridles and decorations for my horsey parades. The only thing I ever wanted to do as a little girl is ride an arabian horse on an english saddle (western saddles were inferior ) free in cool, grassy hills. I didn't want to go to disney world or anything like that, I just wanted to have my own arabian horse.

    My favorite movies as a little girl were all about horses and I would watch them over and over again. I wanted to be a horse lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huckleberry Finn View Post
    I found out quite recently that only some hundred years ago there was a special type of a horse still to be found in the eastern parts of Finland, the carelian horse, which according to sources was smallish by stature and hairy, as the horses in Iceland still are. The arrival of uralic language into Baltics is said to be related to Seymino Turbino phenomenom i.e. the arrival of riding bronze age people from Urals. The horses they had may well have been tarpan type of horses.

    The word for a horse in finnish, hevonen, is probably related to the reconstructed PIE *ekwos type of a word. The other variant, hepo, may be connected to greek hippos. Both words may not however be loanwords from PIE into early finnic as they seem to be problematic in terms of linguistics. These words may actually have an origin in the Uralo-Altaic typological area, if it ever excisted.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/34141601/T...ated-Horse-v2x

    http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl...WheelHorse.pdf
    This is why we like our Gotland Rus ponies so much.

    Karelian horse was small.

    Later, agronomist Axel Alfthan (1862–1934)[76]) and veterinarian Kaarlo Gummerus (1840–1898[77]) expanded Aspelin's hypothesis, proposing that the horse population later diverged into Eastern Finnish and Mid-Finnish types, which had remained distinguishable as late as the turn of the 20th century. Photographs support these claims: the small Karelian horse was blocky and stout, with pronounced withers, a short neck and large head. The small horse from central Finland, on the other hand, was "more noble", with a longer body, lighter neck and more refined head.[75] The Swedish professor Eric Åkerblom even suggested that the Finnish horse spread along river valleys to Troms, Norway, and was the ancestor of the Nordlandshest/Lyngshest, found around the Lyngenfjord. The Norwegians continue to utilise Finnhorse bloodlines, having purchased the Finnish pony-type stallion Viri 632-72P for stud use in 1980. However, Äkerblom dismissed the possibility that the eastern Finnhorse came from same prototype as the western pony breeds.[72]

    In 1927, veterinarian and professor Veikko Rislakki (then Svanberg) proposed a different theory in his doctoral thesis. He argued that three types of wild horses existed in Europe, one of which he believed to be the Przewalski's Horse.[78] Rislakki believed this unrefined and notably large-headed type was the horse the early Finns encountered about 1000 BCE. He sugggested that the Finns later encountered other peoples and horses south of the Gulf of Finland, and that these peoples had better proportioned horses with a shorter muzzle and wider forehead, descended from the Tarpan.[79] In addition, Rislakki suggested that the Finns came across European horses of Spanish and French origin during the first few centuries CE, larger in size and with narrow foreheads.[75] Rislakki believed that his craniometric examinations, carried out in the 1920s, proved the influence of all these three horse types. Almost 20 years later, during the Continuation War, Rislakki also measured Karelian horses, and proposed they also came from an original Northern European animal descended from the Tarpan.[72]

    In the early 20th century, English J. C. Edward and Norwegian S. Petersen, proposed that Finland and the other countries surrounding the Gulf of Finland were the home region for the so-called "yellow pony". A later ethnologist, Kustaa Vilkuna (1902–1980)[80] supported this view, proposing that an "Estonian-Finno-Karelian pony" descended from a small forest horse previously widespread in the lands surrounding the Gulf of Finland.[72]

    Regardless of where the original horses came from, bits found in graves that date from the Roman Iron Age, circa 1–200 CE, are the earliest evidence for the domesticated horse being known to humans then living in the region of Finland.[81][82] This corresponds with the time when significant numbers of people migrated to the area from across the Gulf of Finland. Horseshoes from the Migration period have also been found at multiple sites.[72] Breeds considered to descend from the same early types as the Finnhorse include the Estonian Native horse, the Norwegian Nordlandshest/Lyngshest, the Swedish Gotland Russ, the Mezen horse from the region of Archangelsk, Russia, and the Lithuanian Žemaitukas.[82]
    "From the wolves within the thickets, from the roarings of the pine-tree, from the burrows of the fox-dog, art thou coming from these places?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    So what's the horse equivalent to Y-DNA R1a1a?
    I never got an answer to this question, but I do remember David W. Anthony discussing it in his Horse Wheel Language book, but from what I recall, he never posted any specific clades or anything. He did however point out, that it turned out this way, because the original domesticated horse must have been a male.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unome View Post
    To bolster my previous point… cars are measured in 'horsepower'.

    So the replacement of horse, by car, becomes more evident.

    Perhaps there is a (genetic) link between men and their horses… and car preferences?
    Cars much like horses are just status symbols to get laid, that's all.
    ReactOS <--- support this project so that we can get rid of Windows!
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    In the April issue of Science, there is an article titled "Ancient genomes revisit the ancestry of domestic and Przewalski’s horses," which is behind a paywall. Gaunitz et al. (2018) found that Botai horses from the Botai culture site of Krasnyi Yar, Kazakhstan, were exploited by “Yamnaya” culture pastoralists of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Botai horses were the ancestors of modern Przewalski's horses and Botai-related ancestry is an R1a equivalent in modern domesticated horses. All domesticated horses dated from 4,000 years ago to present show ~2.7% of Botai-related ancestry.



    Revisiting the origins of modern horses
    The domestication of horses was very important in the history of humankind. However, the ancestry of modern horses and the location and timing of their emergence remain unclear. Gaunitz et al. generated 42 ancient-horse genomes. Their source samples included the Botai archaeological site in Central Asia, considered to include the earliest domesticated horses. Unexpectedly, Botai horses were the ancestors not of modern domestic horses, but rather of modern Przewalski's horses. Thus, in contrast to current thinking on horse domestication, modern horses may have been domesticated in other, more Western, centers of origin.

    Abstract
    The Eneolithic Botai culture of the Central Asian steppes provides the earliest archaeological evidence for horse husbandry, ~5500 years ago, but the exact nature of early horse domestication remains controversial. We generated 42 ancient-horse genomes, including 20 from Botai. Compared to 46 published ancient- and modern-horse genomes, our data indicate that Przewalski’s horses are the feral descendants of horses herded at Botai and not truly wild horses. All domestic horses dated from ~4000 years ago to present only show ~2.7% of Botai-related ancestry. This indicates that a massive genomic turnover underpins the expansion of the horse stock that gave rise to modern domesticates, which coincides with large-scale human population expansions during the Early Bronze Age.
    Last edited by ThirdTerm; 2018-04-19 at 08:53.

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    Yes, the Botai culture has been proposed as a serious contender for Horse domestication. I'm not sure they actually domestication the horse, but yeah they had horses in that culture.
    ReactOS <--- support this project so that we can get rid of Windows!
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    “A wise man makes his own decisions; an ignorant man follows public opinion.” ― Chinese proverb

    “Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.” ― H. L. Mencken

    “The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.” ― Socrates

    “Damnant quod non intelligunt.” ― Latin proverb

    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Below is mainstream article from May 9th about the Botai being the first to domesticate horses. The article seems credible.

    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/...sticate-horses

    The article states, "Surprisingly, the team found no Yamnaya DNA in the three Botai individuals, suggesting the two groups hadn’t mixed, the team reports today in Science. That implies the Botai may have tamed horses on their own." ......"Botai horses were not related to modern horses".

    And the kicker from Max Planck linguist:
    “This is the first time I’ve seen people who have supported the steppe hypothesis … saying, ‘Look, it doesn’t work for Anatolia,’” Heggarty says. Other researchers should take the next step, he adds, and continue searching for the origins of PIE beyond the steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thetick View Post
    The article states, "Surprisingly, the team found no Yamnaya DNA in the three Botai individuals, suggesting the two groups hadn’t mixed, the team reports today in Science.
    Botai people were West Siberian Hunter Gatherers, a group of their own. The two paternal lineages which have been identified are N1c1 and R1b. The type of N1c1 which was found, interesting enough, seems to be sort of ancestral to that of Hungarian Pre Scythian sample IR1 but also to Balkan area N-P189.2-lineage.

    It remains to be seen whether WSHG is related to Seyma Turbino activity of the Bronze Age, possibly linked to Krotovo culture of West Siberia, but even now it seems to be clear that WSHG type of genetic heritage explains the genetic outliers fex related to Sintasha. WSHG has BTW been found both in Indus Valley and in Fennoscandia, obviously coming to both places from the Ural area.

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