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Thread: Phenotype of the Proto-Indo-Europeans2469 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auduid View Post
    Funny how the alignment of Nordic Xanthochroi Indo-European vs Mediterranean Melanochroi Afro-Asiatic is happening in this thread, between Arch Hades and EliasAlucard.
    No offense to Elias cause I'm in a good mood today..but he is not Mediterranean, he's from the Desert. You actually have to have ancestry that evolved around the Mediterranean to be Mediterranean. Meds = cool sexy beach people. Elias is a Desert dweller

    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2017-10-01 at 23:27.

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    I merely shifted goal posts here in agreement with Elias and acceptance of you as brother Nordic=Indo-European, Mediterranean=Afro-Asiatic. This avoids the 19th century division but still uses the same terminology and is actually more in terms of Aryisch or Indo-Germanisch vs der Juden. No artificial distinction between Indo-Europeans am I adhering to here. I'm saying that the North African and Middle Eastern peoples like Assyrians would be the real Mediterraneans, whereas Greeks would be counted as Nordic just as French sometimes are, to go with the German and English heritage you have. I'm not sure why both Elias and The Apple say they're both Assyrian and Armenian. Is this some kind of "thing"? Armenians are Aryan Gentiles like Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    A.According to Haak et al Corded Ware had 73% of its ancestry stemming from Yamnaya.
    What you fail to understand is that this means the Corded Ware population was not the same genetic group as the initial Yamnaya population. Certainly their pigmentation had changed (genetically white-washed so to say), but also their genetic position (on PCA plots).

    Simply put, in colloquial terms you just might understand, Corded Ware Indo-Europeans had more indigenous Nordic admixture, than Yamnaya era Indo-Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Yamnaya is the daddy of Corded Ware. So anything that comes directly from Corded Ware ultimately goes mostly back to the Pontic-Caspian Steppe.
    You might as well say the Indo-European admixture in New World mestizos, came directly from Yamnaya and not from Spain...

    Look, I don't think you understand... Yamnaya admixture reached Greece from Corded Ware, not from Yamnaya.

    The fact that R1a-Z93+ has been found very near pre-IE Greece, is way too late in the game, for an IE dialect to have reached Greece from the Pontic-Caspian steppe. If so that R1a marker would have been Z93- and Z282- or something, like the Battle Axe R1a guy in Sweden (RISE94), or the RISE434, RISE446 and I0104 specimen found in Corded Ware and Late Bronze Age Germany, who were also Z93- and Z282- yet R1a-M417+. And then there's @Heladageniskogenoid (I0099), who was R1a-Z283+, which could mean that Z283+ was born in Germany (or Poland). On the other hand, the first ancient DNA R1a that pops up in the Balkans (Bulgaria), and it's R1a-Z93+, which isn't exactly assuring that the proto-Greeks reached Greece before IE tribes settled in Corded Ware, or independently of Corded Ware and directly from the Steppe.

    R1a-Z93+ is most definitely post-Yamnaya and from Corded Ware (Z93+ is not a Yamnaya era marker). Most certainly, Indo-European tribes settled down in Germany and Sweden before they settled down in Greece -- and why wouldn't they? Ukraine's climate and UV radiation is like Poland's, Sweden's and Germany's UV frequencies, whereas Greece has stronger UV radiation and is warmer, so they were more accustomed to the Corded Ware climate:





    And it's very likely that IE settlers reached Greece from Corded Ware and not from Yamnaya. It's not like you have a case that post-Corded Ware, a PIE tribe migrated from the Pontic-Caspian steppe to Greece, because if that was the case, both ancient and modern Greeks would have been speaking a Scythian language today. If proto-Greek was from Yamnaya and pre-Corded Ware, then Greek would have been a lot more archaic, and sounded more like the Anatolian IE languages. So your position holds no water, and no weight, regardless of how you try to spin it, your proto-Greek directly from the Steppe is a very difficult case to argue.

    And yeah, 73% Yamnaya ancestry, and the rest was indigenous central/northern European admixture (i.e., the descendants of the proto-Indo-Europeans, had become blond, blue eyed and lighter skinned at this point). In other words, they were basically, genetically the same as modern northern Europeans at that point (almost anyway). And then they went on to colonize Greece, Italy and Spain, from Corded Ware. Proto-Greek as a dialect of PIE, is most certainly not a Yamnaya off-shoot. It just isn't that conservative, and neither is proto-Armenian (which isn't conservative at all), and Albanian is even less conservative than Armenian. Peter Hrechdakian has argued a very compelling case based on a few Balkan Y-DNA markers that Armenians carry (I think it was I2 and E-V13 or something), that are seemingly absent in Assyrians (Armenians and Assyrians have almost identical haplogroups), which might be a clue to proto-Armenian reaching Armenia from the Balkans. That makes sense. Proto-Armenian is definitely not directly from the Steppe to Anatolia. If so, there wouldn't be any non-IE Caucasus languages left today.

    Anyway, the reason why you can occasionally find Iranians and Indians (like the Kalash) who are phenotypically white, or have blue eyes or light hair and so on, rare as they may be, is because proto-Indo-Iranian came from Corded Ware too, i.e., after the PIE community had acquired light pigmentation in central and northern Europe. If proto-Indo-Iranian was directly from Yamnaya, it's unlikely you'd find white Kalash and Pamiri Tajiks and so on, unless of course, if they find R1a males in Yamnaya and they happen to be loaded with genotypes for blue eyes, blond hair and light skin, but it doesn't seem like they'll pop up in the ancient DNA record at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    B. Aside from Proto Balto-Slavic and Germanic...its completely uncertain what languages stemmed from the Corded Ware complex.
    The linguistically identified archaeological migrations that came from early Yamnaya, are Afanashevo, which is linked to proto-Tocharian, and then there's a migration (I can't remember what it was called, but David Anthony mentioned it) that went through the Balkans, which is linked to proto-Anatolian (not with certainty, but it was likely the proto-Anatolians). Aside from that, making a case for migrations directly from Yamnaya to southern Europe, is difficult. At best you can make a case for some minor Yamnaya intrusions into Romania.

    Hell, even proto-Italic probably originated further north, likely in the La Tène culture, along with proto-Celtic (proto-Italo-Celtic).

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Proto Greek or proto Greco-Armenian coming from there is complete conjecture at this point.
    Not really. What's your argument that proto-Greek and proto-Armenian are directly from the Steppe?

    Proto-Germanic certainly looks more archaic than proto-Greek, and never mind proto-Italo-Celtic, which imho looks far more archaic than proto-Greek. There's no way in hell that proto-Greek split off as early as the Yamnaya era. Proto-Greek looks exactly like a split after proto-Germanic and right before proto-Indo-Iranian. That means it's very unlikely that the proto-Greeks were of full Yamnaya ancestry; they must have been generic Corded Ware at that point, which in turn means they should have had some indigenous, non-PIE, northern European hunter-gatherer admixture.

    Ancient Greek hekatón is closer to Indo-Iranian *ĉatám, than it is to Tocharian *känte. Greek is the only centum language that lacks the N before the T; that's because proto-Greek split shortly before satemization, and satemization did not happen in the Yamnaya era.

    And this cladistic diagram, I'm sure, is quite accurate:



    ^^ At the point Greek branched off from the late PIE community, makes it impossible for this to have occurred in Yamnaya. And even Gimbutas said that the Indo-European colonization of Europe did not in the initial stages, reach the fringes of southern and western Europe.

    Here's also a cool picture I found btw while googling this, not sure of its accuracy, but it might be onto something:



    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    PS. I certainly don't have any inferiority complexes to someone like you pal.
    Who are you kidding? You're the inferiority complex in chief. And you do understand what you're implying with this sentence, right? Not that you understand English, but what you're basically saying, is that you have an inferiority complex when compared to individuals of full Germanic ancestry. That's your problem

    But of course you have an inferiority complex (your insecurities are definitely noticeable). Otherwise you wouldn't be such a bonehead in misunderstanding such a simple topic like this. You being of Mediterranean stock, are clearly bothered by proto-Greek coming from Corded Ware than from Yamnaya (which you for now interpret as a more 'neutral' zone, whereas Corded Ware means the north fucked the south). Your inferiority complex also explains why you for the longest time, against all logic, rationality, linguistic evidence and archaeological findings, were pretending that the Anatolian hypothesis had any validity. You see, as an Assyrian with minimal Indo-European admixture, I'm not bothered by tribal shit like that; my ancestors rejected Indo-Europeanization. But for you, it means that your ancestors got their mother tongue from northern Europeans, which bothers you for some reason.

    Why are you constantly stressing "Semitic" anyway, when talking to me, if you don't have an inferiority complex? It's not like it's a real scientific argument (or urheimat knowledge), nor does it make your position in this thread, more accurate (scientifically accurate I mean). And it's not like it bothers me anyway, because I don't have any inferiority complex like you do. You see, I dislike Muslims not because they speak a Semitic language, but because they're genociding my tribe. You on the other hand, you're bothered over looking like a 'Semite' (and that's your problem anyway). You're bothered by full northern Europeans like @Auduid , likening southern Europeans to "half-Arabs" and shit like that. Not that south Europeans have much Arab ancestry, but you're obviously bothered by the similarities (hair color or whatever), and so you pretend to have something against Semitic peoples so as to make yourself appear less Semitic. Something like that anyway.

    Also, I'm right about this; scientifically right, and you apparently can't argue back with scientific arguments so you resort to silly, childish ethnic attacks (you're basically projecting your own inferiority complexes here). Even if my arguments aren't scientifically valid, at least I'm arguing based on linguistics, genetics, archaeology and so on, whereas you're like, "Semite!" (as if you somehow won the debate by calling someone that). Grow the fuck up, dumbass.

    Lack real arguments in the PIE debate? No problem, just call Elias, "Semite", and you don't have to bother with real arguments!

    Imagine real astrophysicists trying to understand the world, and someone rejects Edward Witten's latest string theory proposal, by calling him a Semite. That's apparently how adults do science in Arch Hades land.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    I have English, German and French ancestry along with being half Greek.
    lol wtf?!?!? You claim to not have an inferiority complex and immediately after your unbelievable claim, you bring up this ridiculous, standard @Sevastopol -like inferiority complex of bragging about and aggrandizing your western European ancestry (like anyone gives a shit, lol). Sevastopol was constantly aggrandizing his Ukrainian and German ancestry (as if it would make him whiter, even though, you know, he looked like a regular wog). Look, no one cares if you have some Germanic ancestry; it doesn't make you more human and it sure as hell doesn't mean your argument is scientifically more valid ("I'm partially German which makes me a scientific authority on this topic!" GTFO with that stupid bullshit.). If you look like a wog, you're a wog. Doesn't matter where the hell you cluster. Wog is not a genetic position, it's a phenotype.

    And by the way, by the power of pseudo-Turk logic, we go by the one drop rule here: if you have as little as 1% Greek ancestry and as much as 99% Germanic ancestry, you have an inferiority complex if you put that Germanic ancestry above your minuscule Greek admixture

    The fact that you're even bringing up such western European ancestry, is an excellent example of your inferiority complex: "hey, look at me, I have partial Germanic ancestry, therefore I must be self-confident, because a pure ethnic Greek cannot have any self-confidence" Or, "hey, I'm part German and part Greek, so therefore I'm more human than ethnic Greeks" Or, "I'm not as insecure as you because my self-confidence comes not from my Greek ancestry, but from my superior English, German and French ancestry" Or, "5% GERMANIC ADMIXTURE MAKES ME 500% MORE SELF-CONFIDENT" What self-confident guy in his right mind, thinks like this? Get the fuck out of here with this stupid bullshit, you wannabe Nazi.

    As if all individuals of Germanic ancestry are totally self-confident and don't have any inferiority complexes, anyway. You do understand that in the real world, there are plenty of north-western European males with psychological insecurities, right? Stop talking as if you're some elite SS soldier or a super model or whatever. If you were, you'd be busy fucking hot women 24/7 like that Armenian wog Dan Bilzerian, not posting stupid bullshit on anthropology forums.

    Face it man, you're so insecure about your own Mediterranean phenotype that you're bringing up this irrelevant northern European admixture, as a way to validate yourself. No one cares.

    Moron.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    So yeah your blood is way more alien to Europe and even Northern Europe than mine is.
    You don't see the Swedish forum members here (who unlike you, don't have any wog admixture), make such a silly statement out of the blue; that's because they don't have anything to prove in that regard. They don't have an inferiority complex like you do (you're basically trying to make yourself more northern Europe than you actually are, and it bothers you that I live in northern Europe whereas you don't).

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    All those monuments u see in Europe were built by people like me, not by 87 IQ desert crap like yourself.
    Technically, the ancient Greeks were taught architecture from Assyrians and Babylonians, and the ancient Greeks were more genetically similar to me than they were to mongrel you

    Besides, according to Richard Lynn, Greeks have a mean IQ at 92, and Armenians, a mean IQ at 94, and since Armenians and Assyrians are pretty much the same genetic group, this should mean Assyrians have a higher IQ than Greeks

    https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country

    Your IQ is definitely not German brainpower, that's for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Haha Elias. I know ur jealous u useless squatter.
    Yeah, more inferiority complex self-esteem issues. You half-Greek, half-English mongrels are the worst abominations ever. @Mike the Jedi had the same ancestry as you, and he looked Straight out of Baghdad. I'm sure you do too.

    I don't have anything against actual ethnic Greeks though; I like 'em, they're more brothers in wog. But you half Greeks are like the worst identity crisis mongrels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Where would you cluster on this genetic map? OUTSIDE of Europe...OFF of the map! . I cluster in it's heartland.

    Actually I'm in that map, I cluster right here:



    That's beside the point though. I'm sure you look very wog And let's face it, you lose sleep over it, that you don't look as northern European as your genetic position tells you you should. Don't take out your frustration and identity crisis on me, I'm just schooling you on reality here, and history.

    And grammatically, it's spelled, in its heartland. You moron. English is your native language and my third language, yet I'm schooling you on simple shit even third graders should know.
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  7. #204
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    What you fail to understand is that this means the Corded Ware population was not the same genetic group as the initial Yamnaya population. Certainly their pigmentation had changed (genetically white-washed so to say), but also their genetic position (on PCA plots).
    Well they are similar but yes not the same..the Corded Ware has some minor Neolithic Farmer and WHG ancestry. As for the pigmentation of CWC..well it's between Yamnaya and modern Northern Europeans. CWC is still darker than modern Northern Europeans

    Simply put, in colloquial terms you just might understand, Corded Ware Indo-Europeans had more indigenous Nordic admixture, than Yamnaya era Indo-Europeans.
    They had more WHG ancestry..yes. What the hell is indigenous Nordic admixture anyway? Nordic people are mutts of the various Eurasian strains that formed Europeans..they are not pure WHGs or SHGs. [The 'indigenous' people of Northern Europe][QUOTE]

    Look, I don't think you understand... Yamnaya admixture reached Greece from Corded Ware, not from Yamnaya.
    All Corded Ware is, is Yamnaya like + some farmer admixture and minor WHG ancestry that survived in Central Europe. No one can possibly know if the steppe ancestry in Greece directly came from Corded Ware, or Bell Beakers, or Yamnaya..or whatever else.



    The fact that R1a-Z93+ has been found very near pre-IE Greece, is way too late in the game, for an IE dialect to have reached Greece from the Pontic-Caspian steppe. If so that R1a marker would have been Z93- and Z282- or something, like the Battle Axe R1a guy in Sweden (RISE94), or the RISE434, RISE446 and I0104 specimen found in Corded Ware and Late Bronze Age Germany, who were also Z93- and Z282- yet R1a-M417+.
    Z93 was found in a genome from Bulgaria who looked Scrubnaya or Andronovo like...not in Greece. And that genome existed 1700 BC..The people of Greece should be speaking Greek by then. I really don't know what you're trying to get at here though. That individual was not Greek...and he could have come from anywhere.

    And then there's @Heladageniskogenoid (I0099), who was R1a-Z283+, which could mean that Z283+ was born in Germany (or Poland). On the other hand, the first ancient DNA R1a that pops up in the Balkans (Bulgaria), and it's R1a-Z93+, which isn't exactly assuring that the proto-Greeks reached Greece before IE tribes settled in Corded Ware, or independently of Corded Ware and directly from the Steppe.
    Ok, i don't get the point of all this. There is a Z93 guy in 1700 BC Bulgaria..that means that proto Greeks earlier in time were directly descended from the Corded Ware in your mind..with complete genetic continuity from the CWC? Uhh well that's complete conjecture at this point.

    R1a-Z93+ is most definitely post-Yamnaya and from Corded Ware (Z93+ is not a Yamnaya era marker). Most certainly, Indo-European tribes settled down in Germany and Sweden before they settled down in Greece -- and why wouldn't they? Ukraine's climate and UV radiation is like Poland's, Sweden's and Germany's UV frequencies, whereas Greece has stronger UV radiation and is warmer, so they were more accustomed to the Corded Ware climate:
    You don't know if Indo-European reached Germany or Sweden before Greece..how ridiculous..no one knows that. We know it's recorded in Greece much earlier but that's as far as we know.

    And it's very likely that IE settlers reached Greece from Corded Ware and not from Yamnaya. It's not like you have a case that post-Corded Ware, a PIE tribe migrated from the Pontic-Caspian steppe to Greece, because if that was the case, both ancient and modern Greeks would have been speaking a Scythian language today. If proto-Greek was from Yamnaya and pre-Corded Ware, then Greek would have been a lot more archaic, and sounded more like the Anatolian IE languages. So your position holds no water, and no weight, regardless of how you try to spin it, your proto-Greek directly from the Steppe is a very difficult case to argue.
    OK, so on the IE linguistic Phylogenetic tree we get an early split between Anatolian and the other IE language branches, i get that. However, that Corded Ware represents the entire other non Anatolian half of the tree is complete conjecture. It could have been a steppe admixed population that gave rise to both Corded Ware and the other branches that split from IE [Greek-Armenian, Celtic-Italic, Albanian, Thracian]. We don't know that Corded Ware gave rise to all other branches...could have just been a group ancestral to Corded Ware an all other branches. Again you're just making things up as you go. Typical Middle Eastern despotic and unscientific approach you have to everything.

    And yeah, 73% Yamnaya ancestry, and the rest was indigenous central/northern European admixture (i.e., the descendants of the proto-Indo-Europeans, had become blond, blue eyed and lighter skinned at this point). In other words, they were basically, genetically the same as modern northern Europeans at that point (almost anyway). And then they went on to colonize Greece, Italy and Spain, from Corded Ware.
    Uhh OK, so why does the steppe ancestry in Greece and Italy and Spain directly descended from Corded Ware? It doesnt have to be.That's conjecture. Italian and Spain and Britian were initially Indo-Europeanized likely by the Bell Beakers anyway, not CWC.

    Proto-Greek as a dialect of PIE, is most certainly not a Yamnaya off-shoot. It just isn't that conservative, and neither is proto-Armenian (which isn't conservative at all), and Albanian is even less conservative than Armenian. Peter Hrechdakian has argued a very compelling case based on a few Balkan Y-DNA markers that Armenians carry (I think it was I2 and E-V13 or something), that are seemingly absent in Assyrians (Armenians and Assyrians have almost identical haplogroups), which might be a clue to proto-Armenian reaching Armenia from the Balkans. That makes sense. Proto-Armenian is definitely not directly from the Steppe to Anatolia. If so, there wouldn't be any non-IE Caucasus languages left today.
    None of this proves proto Greek came directly from CWC though. That's something we don't know. We don't know if CWC spoke the linguistic ancestor to all non Anatolian IE languages or just proto Germanic and Balto-Slavic. It's generally only considered to be the father of Germanic and Balto-Slavic. Not all those other IE branches.
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2017-10-02 at 19:51.

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    @EliasAlucard Cilician Armenian or Caucasian Armenian?
    @Arch Hades Isn't racially insecure. He's Indo-European in an Indo-European country and makes a valid point of your own insecurity. He's not that much a fish out of water, compared to the rapefugees and others from that world, for innocent Assyrians get lumped in with Arab terrorists. Arch Hades doesn't have this problem. Greeks are just over-sophisticated snobs and it's ironic that has-been Aramaic imperialists like Assyrians in the Babylonian and Persian worlds would engage in this folly. Astrology came from Semites and lots of people are deluded by it. Neoclassical architecture was built to commemorate Athens and Rome, not to extoll their Semitic antecedents. If we go down this road, then the unmistakable truth is that we are typing in a Phoenician script. Runes may be Nordic, but likewise Italic, itself Hellenic and onward into the past.

    That last point can be explored tangentially, by asking ourselves if we are happy with our homes and families as they are, or is there supposed to be deeper meaning in what made us so long ago. The truth is, that whatever way in which Arch doesn't belong to the society in which he lives and breathes, under the same parameters, Elias is that much more a misfit. There are mere degrees of separation between us three. Arch is more Continental European than I, whereas Elias is more Middle Eastern than Arch.

    So what? There's a pissing contest here and intellectual dishonesty. Elias makes a straw man out of Arch and tries to dress it up. I'm sure Arch is comfortable and confident in his Indo-European heritage and Elias points out the fact that Greeks are indeed part of the same people, but then tries to minimize this at the same time. You can't talk out of both sides of your mouth and still speak truth. Arch doesn't have to claim any East Mediterranean origin, because then that would be appropriation of Elias's heritage. (Which is or isn't baseborn, depending upon who comments about it.)
    Last edited by Auduid; 2017-10-02 at 22:20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auduid View Post
    @EliasAlucard Cilician Armenian or Caucasian Armenian?
    @Arch Hades Isn't racially insecure. He's Indo-European in an Indo-European country and makes a valid point of your own insecurity. He's not that much a fish out of water, compared to the rapefugees and others from that world, for innocent Assyrians get lumped in with Arab terrorists. Arch Hades doesn't have this problem. Greeks are just over-sophisticated snobs and it's ironic that has-been Aramaic imperialists like Assyrians in the Babylonian and Persian worlds would engage in this folly. Astrology came from Semites and lots of people are deluded by it. Neoclassical architecture was built to commemorate Athens and Rome, not to extoll their Semitic antecedents. If we go down this road, then the unmistakable truth is that we are typing in a Phoenician script. Runes may be Nordic, but likewise Italic, itself Hellenic and onward into the past.

    That last point can be explored tangentially, by asking ourselves if we are happy with our homes and families as they are, or is there supposed to be deeper meaning in what made us so long ago. The truth is, that whatever way in which Arch doesn't belong to the society in which he lives and breathes, under the same parameters, Elias is that much more a misfit. There are mere degrees of separation between us three. Arch is more Continental European than I, whereas Elias is more Middle Eastern than Arch.

    So what? There's a pissing contest here and intellectual dishonesty. Elias makes a straw man out of Arch and tries to dress it up. I'm sure Arch is comfortable and confident in his Indo-European heritage and Elias points out the fact that Greeks are indeed part of the same people, but then tries to minimize this at the same time. You can't talk out of both sides of your mouth and still speak truth. Arch doesn't have to claim any East Mediterranean origin, because then that would be appropriation of Elias's heritage. (Which is or isn't baseborn, depending upon who comments about it.)

    Of course Elias is a misfit. I cluster around the Swiss..Elias clusters in Turkey.

    He's a squatter and total racial alien in Europe...period.

    Also, I have some minor but significant ancestry to the founding stock of the United States..Elias has no ancestry to Sweden..the country he squats in. You can't compare us. I can't help it my blonde all American grandfather liked to pork hot Mediterranean chicks, including his French-Italian secretary [my grandmother].


    Besides, according to Richard Lynn, Greeks have a mean IQ at 92, and Armenians, a mean IQ at 94, and since Armenians and Assyrians are pretty much the same genetic group, this should mean Assyrians have a higher IQ than Greeks
    Lynn is wrong on Greeks. They don't have the IQ of Swiss-Germans but they definitely are not in the low 90s. Buj scored them at 99.

    http://dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/greekiq/iq.pdf
    You being of Mediterranean stock, are clearly bothered by proto-Greek coming from Corded Ware than from Yamnaya (which you for now interpret as a more 'neutral' zone, whereas Corded Ware means the north fucked the south).
    I can't be bothered by something you just pulled out your ass for which there is no proof. Proto Greek was spoken only in NW Greece, no further north than Pindus Mount range. I don't believe the proto Greek speakers were even close to genetically Northern European.

    Also, the idea that Corded Ware was the linguistic ancestor of all non Anatolian IE languages is complete conjecture...you just made that up. Yes there is definitely a proto language that split from PIE that gave rise to all non Anatolian PIE branches but the idea that the Corded Ware archeological complex spoke this IE derived language is total conjecture. IMO it's actually the opposite...this group gave rise to Corded Ware but Corded Ware only gave rise to the Northern IE languages. CWC is just a branch of this group IMO. Corded Ware can't even be said to be the father of Italic and Celtic, much less Greco-Armenian or Thracian. Bell Beakers gave rise to Celtic IMO, the CWC did not.

    You see, as an Assyrian with minimal Indo-European admixture, I'm not bothered by tribal shit like that; my ancestors rejected Indo-Europeanization. But for you, it means that your ancestors got their mother tongue from northern Europeans, which bothers you for some reason.
    Uhh yeah...your ancestors rejected Indo-Europeanization but they accepted Afro-Asiaticization. Same shit, same process, different language family.
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2017-10-03 at 06:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Of course Elias is a misfit. I cluster around the Swiss..Elias clusters in Turkey.

    He's a squatter and total racial alien in Europe...period.

    Also, I have some minor but significant ancestry to the founding stock of the United States..Elias has no ancestry to the Sweden..the country he squats in. You can't compare us. I can't help it my blonde all American grandfather liked to pork Mediterranean chicks, including his French-Italian secretary [my grandmother]
    Elias is one to make statements about an Anatolian Urheimat...

    Of course you cluster in the Alps. Eastern Germany and Western France (or Italy) straddle them in Switzerland, whereas Northern England and Southern (Italy or) Greece link with each of them respectively. Rhine and Rhone...

    I cluster in the North Sea. All of my ancestors back to the Black Death are from the regions of the British Isles and former Merovingian if not also Carolingian Franks (at least Neustria, Lothringen, Austrasia). I'm sure I have Iberian, Italian and probably Armenian as well as Byzantine ancestry from the Crusades period. My supposed ancestress Isabella van Hainault was said to be descended from the Cumans, an Asiatic tribe.

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    You know, regarding the whole 'Mediterranean' thing. to be 'Mediterranean' IMO means you have to have ancestry that evolved around the Mediterranean for a long time. We know ENF [Anatolian farmers] lived around the Mediterranean in prehistoric times and did not just migrate North and West into Europe during the Neolithic..but also East into the fertile crescent mixed with earlier farmers of different genetic lines in the East. This ENF ancestry Europeans have which today peaks in Sardinina is present in the Middle East including Assyria...so yes Elias is significantly Mediterranean I guess.

    Though I would like to see how much actual ENF-Anatolian farmer ancestry Assyrians have though. They'll have Natufian, Neolithic Iranian, and CHG ancestry as well. The latter two are definitely not 'Mediterranean'.

    Also..the so called 'East Mediterranean' phenotype that's so dominant in a place like Cyprus or Lebanon is a hybrid. It's very significantly influenced by CHG ancestry, not just actual ENF ancestry that had lived around the Mediterranean for 10,000+ years. CHG ancestry is pretty new in the Mediterranean...doesnt really predate the Bronze Age. So Sardinians are actually more legitimately Mediterranean than Cypriots or Lebanese.
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2017-10-03 at 06:20.

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    Let's focus on clustering by the great majority of our ancestry, rather than putting undue emphasis on this or that particular ancestry that is the exception to the rule.

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