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Thread: Is this map correct?3105 days old

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    It makes sense that the indo-iranian language group would be related to slavic, considering the fact that iranian scythians from the east (who are an indo-european offshoot) came back to overrun the original PIE homeland north of the black sea (I think that happened around 900-800bce), and were then followed a few hundred years later by a closely related iranian group- the sarmatians. Apparently the non-slavic european language groups split off prior to the scythian invasion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordic_INTJ View Post
    (...) considering the fact that iranian scythians from the east (who are an indo-european offshoot) came back to overrun the original PIE homeland north of the black sea (I think that happened around 900-800bce), and were then followed a few hundred years later by a closely related iranian group- the sarmatians.
    So maybe there was the Balto-Slavic-Indo-Aryan continuum before both groups got separated by the Scythian invasion from the East?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    So maybe there was the Balto-Slavic-Indo-Aryan continuum before both groups got separated by the Scythian invasion from the East?
    No... it appears you don't understand what I'm saying. What I suspect happened is that the slavic language group descended from the scytho-sarmatian language. I suspect that the scytho-sarmatian language mixed with an indigenous germanic language to spawn the slavic language group, and the baltic language group represents an intermediate language between germanic and slavic. The mixing of languages could have resulted from the turko-mongol invasions from the east, which may have pushed the scytho-sarmatians further west into european territory. This theory also explains why slavs have such a high incidence of y-haplogroup R1a- because the indo-iranian branch of the indo-europeans was almost purely R1a due to a founder effect, whereas the y-haplogroups of the original indo-europeans were more mixed.
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    I've done a ton of research on slavic origins since I submitted that last post, so I have altered my theory.

    There were distinct cultures in eastern europe, southeast of the germanic area, that predate the gothic (germanic) invasion. I believe that the people in those east-european cultures spoke an indo-european centum language that was non-germanic, but similar to germanic, and possessed distinctly slavic and baltic traits.

    The scythians overran the pontic-caspian steppe I think around 800bce. There was a particular east-european archeological culture called the chernoles culture (~750-200bce), which was adjacent to the northwest of the scythian area. The chernoles people were at first influenced by, and then dominated by (as of ~500bce), the scythians. I therefore believe that the satemization of the balto-slavic language group began with the chernoles culture. The later zarubintsy culture (3rd century bce to 1st century ce) existed in around the same area as the chernoles culture, and likewise showed strong scythian influence.

    I believe that the satemized slavic language spread northwestward from one or both of those two east-european cultures, merging with the language of another indigenous east-european group, resulting in the satemized baltic language group.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordic_INTJ View Post
    I've done a ton of research on slavic origins since I submitted that last post, so I have altered my theory.
    You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

    Slavs have nothing to do with Germanics or Celts. We're older then either of those. Germanics are a hybrid/creole culture, while Celts are Indo-Europeanized local yocals.

    The horseshit theories about R1b coming from the steppe along with steppe Celto-Germanics have loads of comedy value, but that's as far as it goes. After that it gets pretty sad watching some people steal the heritage of others.
    Last edited by Polako; 2011-04-16 at 15:56.

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    Typical slav with the authoritarian self-righteousness trait, of hun origin. You're putting words into my mouth.

    I don't believe that the proto-indo-europeans carried R1b in any substantial amount; I think that's unlikely. R1a however, had a much wider distribution than the proto-indo-europeans alone.

    As for links between slavic and germanic, I now believe that the most likely scenario is that, during the chernyakhov culture, there was an influx of germanic goths from the northwest into the slavic genepool, as well as germanic linguistic influence.

    All modern indo-european language groups resulted from proto-indo-europeans mixing with local people. The slavic language group is not a special exception. The slavic language group, the germanic language group, and the italo-celtic language group are all descended from the corded ware area, in which the proto-indo-europeans mixed with various local peoples. Neither the proto-indo-european language exists today, nor do the proto-indo-european people exist as a population anywhere. The proto-indo-european language was suppressed when the scythians overran and dominated the PIE homeland.
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    What nonsense. You head though sometimes think, not just eat it.
    Eastern Slavs - just direct descendants Korded culture, and the heirs of the archaic language Satem. Direct descendant Korded - east nordid, which is the basis for Russian, White Russians, Poles and Balts. Just they are "Aryans", which confirmed that genetics - R1a.
    Anything west of Poland - are autochthons Europe that were arizirovany, just the spread of R1a in the rest of Europe, bound spread of Indo-European languages.
    Scythian-Sarmatians were originally carcass type, and this CM. But in the Black Sea steppes, they acquired the phenotype pontid from the local population (Mehta and zihi), who belonged to Kavkazsvoy linguistic group. Just from them and goes I2a, G, E1b ...

    So you are in flight, and the moderator-Pole - a real Aryan.

    ---------- Post added 2011-04-17 at 02:14 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nordic_INTJ View Post
    Typical slav with the authoritarian self-righteousness trait, of hun origin. You're putting words into my mouth.
    By the way, in these Slavs have nothing Asian, but rather they are the most pure Evropetsy because
    R1a, east-nordid. And you only Indo-evropezirovanny autochthonous, iliriyskogo origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

    Slavs have nothing to do with Germanics or Celts. We're older then either of those. Germanics are a hybrid/creole culture, while Celts are Indo-Europeanized local yocals.

    The horseshit theories about R1b coming from the steppe along with steppe Celto-Germanics have loads of comedy value, but that's as far as it goes. After that it gets pretty sad watching some people steal the heritage of others.
    Yes, it looks like a comedy, but it’s also sad.
    When they speak about Celto-Germanic “Tocharians” or Celto-Germanic “Aryans” going to India or coming from the steppe and conquering Europe, like for example David Anthony, I cannot refrain from laughing.

    There are however some western scientists, who do not follow that nonsense, for example American linguist G.S. Lane. Lane links Tocharians with Slavs:

    As the Tocharians began to move east, the last contacts that they had with other Indo-Europeans (before their much later interaction with the Indians and Iranians) was with the Slavs, resulting in some Slavic influence in the lexicon, but no impact on the essential structure of the language.
    http://www.oxuscom.com/eyawtkat.htm


    G.S. Lane also rejects any links between Tocharians and Germanic:

    NO particular relationship with Germanic (G. S. Lane)
    http://www.jstor.org/pss/601651

    Also in some modern books like Indo-European Language and Culture: An Introduction 2010 By Benjamin W. Fortson that nonsense of linking Tocharians with Italo-Celtic group is rejected. On page 401 he writes:

    An earlier view, now abandoned, connected Tocharian with the supposed Italo-Celtic subgroup of IE.
    Fortson wrote it before genetic discoveries made by Li at al. 2010
    Abstract
    Background
    The Tarim Basin, located on the ancient Silk Road, played a very important role in the history of human migration and cultural communications between the West and the East. However, both the exact period at which the relevant events occurred and the origins of the people in the area remain very obscure. In this paper, we present data from the analyses of both Y chromosomal and mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) derived from human remains excavated from the Xiaohe cemetery, the oldest archeological site with human remains discovered in the Tarim Basin thus far.
    Results
    Mitochondrial DNA analysis showed that the Xiaohe people carried both the East Eurasian haplogroup (C) and the West Eurasian haplogroups (H and K), whereas Y chromosomal DNA analysis revealed only the West Eurasian haplogroup R1a1a in the male individuals.
    Conclusion

    Our results demonstrated that the Xiaohe people were an admixture from populations originating from both the West and the East, implying that the Tarim Basin had been occupied by an admixed population since the early Bronze Age. To our knowledge, this is the earliest genetic evidence of an admixed population settled in the Tarim Basin.
    Now we know that those linguists who linked Tocharians with Slavs were closest to the truth. Tocharians turned out to have hg. R1a1a, most common among Slavs and very rare among indigenous Celto-Germanic populations not mixed with Slavs.

    Since Tocharians turned out to be R1a1a like Slavs and linguists observed that “last contacts that they had with other Indo-Europeans (before their much later interaction with the Indians and Iranians) was with the Slavs, resulting in some Slavic influence in the lexicon”, it follows that Andronovo culture was not Indo-Iranian. Indo-Aryan and Iranian influences came from Persian Empire and Buddhist religion at much later time. Most likely some Proto-Slavic dialects were spoken at Andronowo at the time of Proto-Tocharian formation in the east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    Take a look at the map attached below I came accross accidentally today.
    It shows Indo-Aryans associated here with the Timber Grave culture in the neighbourhood of the Balto-Slavic group ("Eastern Corded Ware"). Balto-Slavs are far away from the Andronowo culture interpreted here as Iranians.

    Do you think this map is correct? Were Indo-Aryans really neighbors of Balto-Slavs at some point in the (pre-)history?
    In my opinion that map is not correct.

    I believe that languages are very much affected by contacts with other languages and by substratum. For example Tocharian was formed on some unknown substratum and was very strongly affected by other IE languages, like Sanskrit and Iranian, and some non-IE languages, including Tibetan, Chinese, and Uighur.
    Indo-Aryan languages evolved in India, and Iranian in Iran. It is very likely that Indo-Iranian etnogenesis took place in Bactrian Margiana culture. I wrote about it here:

    https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sh...&postcount=180

    It is therefore very unlikely that Tocharian language originated somewhere in Europe. It is more probable that it evolved in Asia, somewhere around Tarim Basin, where it could get all those influences from Indo-Aryan, Iranian, Tibetan, Chinese, Uighur and other languages of the region.

    Also Indo-Aryan and Iranian languages should be placed in Asia, in India and Iran respectively. There is absolutely no proof that Indo-Aryan or Iranian languages were ever spoken in Europe.
    https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sh...&postcount=126
    https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sh...&postcount=129

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    After that it gets pretty sad watching some people steal the heritage of others.
    You mean Slavs claiming to be Aryans for example? I have seen many of those. Arya's are from India. And only from India.

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