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Thread: North/South3034 days old

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    Default North/South

    I would like to ask for an opinion some Italians.
    Last week I read an article in a polish magazine about Italy. Actually it was about unification of Italy 150 (if I remember right) years ago and its repercussions. One thing stroke me in this article. It says that the south was robbed by the north during the process of unification and straight afterwards. Apparently, during that times the south had some gold and savings in banks and was relatively in good condition, while the north was completely messed financially, state it simply- in debts. After unification the South's money and savings were all used to repay debts of the North, then it went ever further and robbing the south became the norm.
    The article concludes that this mafia mentality in the south may have roots in lack of trust to the state and government, because of these historic experiences. Anyone willing to share from your perspective?

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    I've heard mafia mentality dates back to the Romans, but I'm no expert.
    yo soy primero Liniero, despues Cibaeño y despues Dominicano

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    Maybe it was grounded more then after these experiences?

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    anyone else? Do I have to call to the blackboard? Sean?Alfieb?

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    Mafia has its roots in the convulsory medieval period, when locals decided to create parapolitical structures due to the high instability produced by the continuous changes of foreign rulers. You know, "la cosa nostra".

    Yes, the south paid most of the italian reunification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwestos View Post
    I would like to ask for an opinion some Italians.
    Last week I read an article in a polish magazine about Italy. Actually it was about unification of Italy 150 (if I remember right) years ago and its repercussions. One thing stroke me in this article. It says that the south was robbed by the north during the process of unification and straight afterwards. Apparently, during that times the south had some gold and savings in banks and was relatively in good condition, while the north was completely messed financially, state it simply- in debts.
    After unification the South's money and savings were all used to repay debts of the North, then it went ever further and robbing the south became the norm.
    It is complicated, the Risorgimento (Unification of Italy) was a complicated process.

    The idea that that the north conquered the South is not true as many historians claim now, there were revolts in the South against the Bourbons even before the Unification process.
    The Carbonari one of the most important revolutionary groups were original from the south.
    So the South was into the Unification process too.

    About the economical differences before and after the Unification, the south was always poorer than the north. The south was based on Agriculture while the north had more industries and better roads and train rails, not to dismiss the South they had a lot of good thing too. Also the life standard was always better at the North, In the south there were more social difference, it was a Feudal State: there was few rich and lot of poor people.

    About the economical situation i cant tell how much gold saved had the South at the moment of the Risorgimento. But about the North it is true the Kingdom Lombardo-Veneto was in debt because we were controlled by the Austrians, and before that the French under Napoleon. But still we had better industries and a more modernized agriculture.

    After the unification it was stressing to all the regions of Italy, having a central government and a common economy was not easy and in that environment the North got the most benefits because they were more modernized.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kwestos View Post
    The article concludes that this mafia mentality in the south may have roots in lack of trust to the state and government, because of these historic experiences.
    Mafia is mostly an American word, the correct term is organized crime or clandestine societies. That kind of societies were common in the Mezzogiorno (south Italy) since ever, as far as i know all those histories about them being Robin Hood and taking from the rich to help the poor are fantasies and romanticism. Actually they were in part the responsible of the south being backwards.
    Last edited by sean; 2011-03-30 at 03:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwestos View Post
    I would like to ask for an opinion some Italians.
    Last week I read an article in a polish magazine about Italy. Actually it was about unification of Italy 150 (if I remember right) years ago and its repercussions. One thing stroke me in this article. It says that the south was robbed by the north during the process of unification and straight afterwards. Apparently, during that times the south had some gold and savings in banks and was relatively in good condition, while the north was completely messed financially, state it simply- in debts. After unification the South's money and savings were all used to repay debts of the North, then it went ever further and robbing the south became the norm.
    The article concludes that this mafia mentality in the south may have roots in lack of trust to the state and government, because of these historic experiences. Anyone willing to share from your perspective?
    Well first off when you speak about the Mafia, it's good to first realize that there is more than one organized crime group in Italy, and they do not necessarily have the same origin. From what I've read and been told, the Camorra in particular has origins in pre-unification Naples. Some say the organization as Spanish origin, though I don't believe there is much evidence. What i can tell you for sure is that following the unification, Camorra clans had been given special duties, under the new kingdom, and had grown immensely since the unification. Prior to that, they were basically bodyguards for games of Morra (a gambling game).

    The Mafia in Sicily from what I've heard took origin around the same time, and had often been used as protection from the abuses of invaders. Not so sure about the Calabrian Ndranghetta, but from what I've heard, it seems kind of cultish. I hear everyone is related and that it serves also as a form of order in certain villages. All of these organizations seem to have filled in the place of missing state structures in post-unification southern Italy.

    ---------- Post added 2011-10-04 at 15:12 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by sean View Post
    It is complicated, the Risorgimento (Unification of Italy) was a complicated process.

    The idea that that the north conquered the South is not true as many historians claim now, there were revolts in the South against the Bourbons even before the Unification process.
    The Carbonari one of the most important revolutionary groups were original from the south.
    So the South was into the Unification process too.

    About the economical differences before and after the Unification, the south was always poorer than the north. The south was based on Agriculture while the north had more industries and better roads and train rails, not to dismiss the South they had a lot of good thing too. Also the life standard was always better at the North, In the south there were more social difference, it was a Feudal State: there was few rich and lot of poor people.

    About the economical situation i cant tell how much gold saved had the South at the moment of the Risorgimento. But about the North it is true the Kingdom Lombardo-Veneto was in debt because we were controlled by the Austrians, and before that the French under Napoleon. But still we had better industries and a more modernized agriculture.

    After the unification it was stressing to all the regions of Italy, having a central government and a common economy was not easy and in that environment the North got the most benefits because they were more modernized.




    Mafia is mostly an American word, the correct term is organized crime or clandestine societies. That kind of societies were common in the Mezzogiorno (south Italy) since ever, as far as i know all those histories about them being Robin Hood and taking from the rich to help the poor are fantasies and romanticism. Actually they were in part the responsible of the south being backwards.
    I agree with the last paragraph, but some of what you've said above I can contend with though I'd rather not get into that argument. I recommend the book Il Sud e l'unità D'Italia by Giussepe Ressa free online: http://www.ilportaledelsud.org/rec-ressa.htm. To add to what you have already said, the stress you mentioned above came from brutal taxation. The Neapolitan and Sicilian who supported the unification (the minority: mostly wealthy landowning liberals), realized they had been duped, when the "liberal republic" was instead proclaimed a kingdom under another French monarch.

    Here's a shortened English version for the English speakers http://www.ilportaledelsud.org/unification-1000.pdf excuse the poor translation

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    Basically the North is like Germany and the South is like Greece

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace View Post
    Basically the North is like Germany and the South is like Greece
    Not quite.

    The north wish they were as ordered as Germans but unlike Germans they could not organise a raffle while the poorer south is like Greece but the criminal organisations there like the Cosa Nostra and the 'Ndrangheta show that southerners are much better organisers and more group-oriented.

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    Pelo irto e setoso CorintoMarchialla's Avatar
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    I'm no expert in Mafia but I know that some historians dated it back when the spanish crown ruled the southern parts of the peninsula,it is true that many "mafias" do exist but the most famous all around the world (sad to say it) is from Sicily.

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