User Tag List

Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 53

Thread: How Egyptians looked to Foreigners2924 days old

  1. #1
    Established Member
    Theorist EclectYummination's Avatar
    Last Online
    2017-06-30 @ 19:30
    Join Date
    2011-06-03
    Posts
    1,458
    Gender
    Metaethnos
    North American
    Ethnicity
    Afro-American
    Phenotype
    sort of like Ice Cube
    Politics
    MildlyLiberal/Centrist
    Religion
    I believe in Yahoshua
    United States

    Default How Egyptians looked to Foreigners

    Ancient Egyptians according to foreign accounts (ancient to middle ages)

    the Egyptian look in comparison with other ethnicities, peoples, nations...

    Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because the bodies of living creatures become distorted by heat, like logs of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports this theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations, and curliness is as it were crookedness of the hair."
    - Aristotle

    On skin complexion whites are listed from lightest to darkest and blacks from darkest to lightest (Egyptians come out "medium hue" of humankind):

    Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras
    dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore
    formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus
    materiamque parem privato foedere signant.
    flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus,
    Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore,
    asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus.
    Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora
    Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus,
    perque coloratas subtilis Graecia gentes
    gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras,
    et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.

    Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant
    perfusas hominum gentes; minus India tostos
    progenerat;
    tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo
    lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis
    iam propior
    mediumque facit moderata tenorem.
    Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris
    exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen
    oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
    - Manilius

    Side note: These Mauretanians were the Mauri whom Jerome and other Romans classified as Ethiopians and whom Platus says were also known as "Niger" or "Nigri". These were not the "Libyans" whom I'm aware were described as Leuco-Ethiopians ("white" Ethiopians) -- I will speak about the even more variably described NorthWest Africans at the bottom of this post (including blonde to mixed to black described at times).


    For the fact is as I soon came to realise myself, and then heard from others
    later, that the Colchians are obviously Egyptian. When the notion occurred to
    me, I asked both the Colchians and the Egyptians about it, and found that the
    Colchians had better recall of the Egyptians than the Egyptians did of them.
    Some Egyptians said that they thought the Colchians originated with Sesostris's
    army, but I myself guessed their Egyptian origin not only because the Colchians
    are black-skinned and wooly-haired (which does not count for
    much by itself , because these features are common in others too) but more
    importantly because Colchians, Egyptians and Ethiopians are the only peoples in
    the world who practise circumcision and who have always done so.


    - Herodotus


    Herodotus similarly used Melanchroes "dark-skinned" for the Egyptians, and Aithiopsi "coal-faced" for the Ethiopians. Herodotus also describes the Scythian Budini as having deep blue eyes and bright red hair.


    - Herodotus 4.108 trans. Rawlinson.

    Xenophon describes the Ethiopians as black, and the Persian troops as white compared to the sun-tanned skin of Greek troops.
    - Xenophanes of Colophon: Fragments, Xenophanes, J. H. Lesher

    The Indian comparison quotes

    The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically.
    - Arrian, Indica 6.9

    As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians.
    - Strabo, Geography 15.1.13

    "Northern India" would then have referred to what is now Pakistan and perhaps the Colchians Herodotus described above (through the ages the latter have been described as yellow, and although black Georgians still exist most say they are immigrant descendents of Sudanese troops or something like that.

    Pakistanis:

    [imglink]http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01295/tamil_1295593c.jpg[/imglink]

    [imglink]http://www.voicetamil.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/vavuniya_camp_tamil_student_2.jpg[/imglink]

    (O.T. but interestingly - especially since early on Euros more inland than Greco-Romans confused "India" which refers to Indo-Arabian "Eastern Ethiopia" with Nile Valley-Saharan "Ethiopia" and used the two words interchangeably - there are dark skinned Somali and Jet black Sudanese with hair that at least *looks* very wavy btw.)

    "Too black a hue marks a coward as for example Egyptians and Ethiopians. So too--too white a hue as in the case of women. The best colour is the intermediate colour as in the case of lions. That makes for bravery..."
    - Aristotle



    ---------- Post added 2011-08-17 at 14:11 ----------



    On what the oldest "Afrocentrist",

    [imglink]http://wysinger.homestead.com/Diodorus_Siculus2.jpg[/imglink]

    Diodorus Siculus, a Greek, had to say on the matter:

    They say also that the Egyptians are colonists sent out by the Ethiopians, Osiris having been the leader of the colony. For, speaking generally, what is now Egypt, they maintain, was not land but sea when in the beginning the universe was being formed; afterwards, however, as the Nile during the times of its inundation carried down the mud from Ethiopia, land was gradually built up from the deposit. Also the statement that all the land of the Egyptians is alluvial silt deposited by the river receives the clearest proof, in their opinion, from what takes place at the outlets of the Nile; for as each year new mud is continually gathered together at the mouths of the river, the sea is observed being thrust back by the deposited silt and the land receiving the increase. And the larger part of the customs of the Egyptians are, they hold, Ethiopian, the colonists still preserving their ancient manners. For instance, the belief that their kings are gods, the very special attention which they pay to their burials, and many other matters of a similar nature are Ethiopian practices, while the shapes of their statues and the forms of their letters are Ethiopian; for of the two kinds of writing which the Egyptians have, that which is known as "popular" (demotic) is learned by everyone, while that which is called "sacred" is understood only by the priests of the Egyptians, who learn it from their fathers as one of the things which are not divulged, but among the Ethiopians everyone uses these forms of letters. Furthermore, the orders of the priests, they maintain, have much the same position among both peoples; for all are clean who are engaged in the service of the gods, keeping themselves shaven, like the Ethiopian priests, and having the same dress and form of staff, which is shaped like a plough and is carried by their kings, who wear high felt hats which end in a knob at the top and are circled by the serpents which they call asps; and this symbol appears to carry the thought that it will be the lot of those who shall dare to attack the king to encounter death-carrying stings. Many other things are also told by them concerning their own antiquity and the colony which they sent out that became the Egyptians, but about this there is no special need of our writing anything.

    4. We must now speak about the Ethiopian writing which is called hieroglyphic among the Egyptians, in order that we may omit nothing in our discussion of their antiquities. Now it is found that the forms of their letters take the shape of animals of every kind, and of the members of the human body, and of implements and especially carpenters' tools; for their writing does not express the intended concept by means of syllables joined one to another, but by means of the significance of the objects which have been copied and by its figurative meaning which has been impressed upon the memory by practice. For instance, they draw the picture of a hawk, a crocodile, a snake, and of the members of the human body—an eye, a hand, a face, and the like. Now the hawk
    signifies to them everything which happens swiftly, since this animal is practically the swiftest of winged creatures. And the concept portrayed is then transferred, by the appropriate metaphorical transfer, to all swift things and to everything to which swiftness is appropriate, very much as if they had been named. And the crocodile is a symbol of all that is evil, and the eye is the warder of justice and the guardian of the entire body. And as for the members of the body, the right hand with fingers extended signifies a procuring of livelihood, and the left with the fingers closed, a keeping and guarding of property. The same way of reasoning applies also to the remaining characters, which represent parts of the body and implements and all other things; for by paying close attention to the significance which is inherent in each object and by training their minds through drill and exercise of the memory over a long period, they read from habit everything which has been written.
    Later European impression

    Byzantine depiction of Abraham and Sarah with Egyptians, including the pharaoh, all depicted the same colour:

    [imglink]http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/samples/pa/stories/bk_moses/abraham/Abraham%20and%20Sarah%20before%20Pharaoh%20.gif[/imglink]

    full view of both

    In Dante's inferno in rhyme something black as all get-up is described as "black as those who live on the Nile".

    A side note On "Libyans", and how they were invaded by Phoenicians et. al. as well as by "Ethiopians" at a point in time:


    Above the tracts washed by the Libyan sea live the Leuco Ethiopians
    - Pomponius


    "Snowden (1970) and Desanges (1981) reference
    various writers’ physical descriptions of
    the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In
    various writers’ physical descriptions of
    the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In addition
    to the presence of fair-skinned blonds,
    various “Ethiopian” or “part-Ethiopian”
    groups are described, near the coast and on
    the southern slopes of the Atlas mountains.
    “Ethiopians,” meaning dark-skinned peoples
    usually having “ulotrichous” (wooly)
    hair, are noted in various Greek accounts
    and European coinage
    (Snowden, 1970). Hiernaux
    (1975) interprets the finding of “subsaharan”
    population affinities in living
    Maghrebans as being solely the result of the
    medieval transsaharan slave trade; it is
    clear that this is not the case. Furthermore,
    the blacks of the ancient Maghreb were apparently
    not foreign or a caste."
    - General History of Africa: Ancient civilizations of Africa By G. Mokhtar, Unesco. International Scientific Committee for the Drafting of a General History of Africa
    p. 427


    "say that Ethiopians overran Libya as far as Dyris [the Atlas Mountains] and that some
    of them stayed in Dyris, while others occupied a great part of the sea-board.
    "
    - Strabo, Geography 1.2.26


    Furthermore, if we are to believe Diodorus(XX, 57.5), a lieutenant of Agathocles in northern Tuninisa at the close of the fourth century before our era overcame a people who skin was similar to the Ethiopian'. There is much evidence of the presence of 'Ethiopians' on the southern borders of Africa Minor. Throughout the classical period, mention is also made of peoples belonging to intermediate races, the Melano-Getules, or Leuco-Ethiopians in particular in Ptolemy.
    - The golden trade of the Moors: West African kingdoms in the fourteenth century
    By E. W. Bovill, Robin Hallet
    pp. 21-22

    Then there's this Christian physician who described Egyptian-Sudanese region Beja women as "golden" complected (which many nubians are today) describes Berber women he encountered like this:

    Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children.
    - Martha A. Brozyna in Gender and Sexuality in the Middle Ages: A Medieval Source Documents Reader 2005
    Last edited by EclectYummination; 2011-08-17 at 19:11.

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to EclectYummination For This Useful Post:

    Doctoris Scientia (2011-08-17), TheMask (2015-08-21)

  3. # ADS
    Advertisement bot
    Join Date
    2013-03-24
    Posts
    All threads
       
     

  4. #2
    Established Member
    Evolutionary Biologist
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-12-30
    Posts
    3,483
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    E1b1b1a1a2
    mtDNA
    T1a8b

    Default

    The Pakistanis you posted are a bit darker than average.

  5. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Lol_Race For This Useful Post:

    beyoku (2011-08-17), EclectYummination (2011-08-17), Esekon Kimatt (2011-08-21), pgbk87 (2011-08-19), voyager (2011-08-17)

  6. #3
    Established Member
    Theorist EclectYummination's Avatar
    Last Online
    2017-06-30 @ 19:30
    Join Date
    2011-06-03
    Posts
    1,458
    Gender
    Metaethnos
    North American
    Ethnicity
    Afro-American
    Phenotype
    sort of like Ice Cube
    Politics
    MildlyLiberal/Centrist
    Religion
    I believe in Yahoshua
    United States

    Default

    Truth, I posted Pakistani Tamils as the image that can come to mind is that of Iranians, which even in ancient Greek times were "white" (read above) ancient Persians, not to confuse them with the ancient Elamites..

    bit darker than average.
    Yeah, a tad. (j/k)

  7. #4
    Established Member
    AFRO-NATIVE SCHOLAR Maroon King's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2010-03-19
    Posts
    8,837
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    R1b1b2a1a2
    mtDNA
    A2
    Race
    Triracial
    Metaethnos
    Afrocolombiano
    Ethnicity
    Barbacoano/Pacifico
    Phenotype
    Native/SSA/Med
    Nigeria Mali Benin Guinea-Bissau Congo Democratic Republic Mozambique

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lol_Race View Post
    The Pakistanis you posted are a bit darker than average.
    Yeah, I never knew Pakistan had people that dark actually. Are they native Pakistanis, or of a certain ethnic group in Pakistan? The lady in the 2nd pic is really dark, darker than many SSAs.

  8. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Maroon King For This Useful Post:

    EclectYummination (2011-08-17), Esekon Kimatt (2011-08-21), pgbk87 (2011-08-19)

  9. #5
    Established Member
    Theorist EclectYummination's Avatar
    Last Online
    2017-06-30 @ 19:30
    Join Date
    2011-06-03
    Posts
    1,458
    Gender
    Metaethnos
    North American
    Ethnicity
    Afro-American
    Phenotype
    sort of like Ice Cube
    Politics
    MildlyLiberal/Centrist
    Religion
    I believe in Yahoshua
    United States

    Default

    Btw, it only took me literally under two seconds from Google to type "Tamils", before copying the image urls right off the literally first page for this post.

    Freaking frustratingly and surprisingly ,what took me the friggin longest was locating all the quotes (they're usually everywhere).

  10. #6
    Established Member
    AFRO-NATIVE SCHOLAR Maroon King's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2010-03-19
    Posts
    8,837
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    R1b1b2a1a2
    mtDNA
    A2
    Race
    Triracial
    Metaethnos
    Afrocolombiano
    Ethnicity
    Barbacoano/Pacifico
    Phenotype
    Native/SSA/Med
    Nigeria Mali Benin Guinea-Bissau Congo Democratic Republic Mozambique

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EclectYummination View Post
    Btw, it only took me literally under two seconds from Google to type "Tamils", before copying the image urls right off the literally first page for this post.

    Freaking frustratingly and surprisingly ,what took me the friggin longest was locating all the quotes (they're usually everywhere).
    Oh ok, I did not know there were Pakistani Tamils.

  11. #7
    Established Member
    Theorist EclectYummination's Avatar
    Last Online
    2017-06-30 @ 19:30
    Join Date
    2011-06-03
    Posts
    1,458
    Gender
    Metaethnos
    North American
    Ethnicity
    Afro-American
    Phenotype
    sort of like Ice Cube
    Politics
    MildlyLiberal/Centrist
    Religion
    I believe in Yahoshua
    United States

    Default

    Btw, people can feel free as Maroon King and I did to mention various ethnies, continents, regions, Sub-Saharan Africa, Supra-Saharan Africa, etc, but this thread is not about genetics or anything, at least not focused on it.

    Anyone can foremost feel free to add other quotes and examples, like if anyone could hunt down the other sentence to the Dante's Inferno "black as those who live on the Nile" rhyme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maroon King View Post
    Oh ok, I did not know there were Pakistani Tamils.
    that rant sign was not aimed at you brotha (nor anyone else), just a sign of the frustration of the timing of all the quotes deciding to be hidden in the web crevaces.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to EclectYummination For This Useful Post:

    Maroon King (2011-08-17)

  13. #8
    Established Member
    Master procrastinator JaM's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-10-30
    Posts
    4,827
    Location
    East Doggerland
    Gender
    Metaethnos
    Doggerlandic
    Ethnicity
    South Norse
    Phenotype
    Kostenkioid
    Politics
    Relativism
    Religion
    None
    Denmark Viking Finland Spain Castile

    Default

    Many Egyptians today have curly hair, and frizzy hair. Nothing unusual about it. Tamils and Sri Lankans, on the other hand, usually have relatively straight hair. Are Tamils indigenous to Pakistan at all? I don't get the point of posting them.

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to JaM For This Useful Post:

    beyoku (2011-08-17), OldPretan (2011-08-18), pgbk87 (2011-08-19)

  15. #9
    Established Member
    Molecular Biologist Helios's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2011-01-13
    Posts
    1,634
    Location
    US
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    E-V13
    mtDNA
    H1g
    Race
    West Eurasian
    Ethnicity
    Maronite
    Skull and crossbones Skull and crossbones Skull and crossbones

    Default

    The ancient Egyptians resembled moden Egyptians most phenotypically followed by North Africans though they shared a few traits in common with other populations.

    The Greek Xenphanes wrote the following in 500 BC: "Black people resided not in the Nile Valley but in a far land, by the fountain of the sun." (Hesiod, works and days 527-8)

    Herodotus said (speaking of the Colchians) "...I myself guessed their Egyptian origin not only because the Colchians are dark-skinned and curly-haired (which does not count for much by itself, because these features are common to others too)."

    The Ancient Egyptians had dark skin (not black) and curly hair such as many MENA...certainly not kinky hair.

    In 400 BC, Hippocrates recorded the Egyptians looked like the Scythians (Persians/Iranians) with the same ruddy complexion, the Scythian from the cold, the Egyptians from the burning sun.

    The Romans also clearly differentiated between the Egyptians and Ethiopians in their depictions:

    "The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it is a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone." - Manilius, Astronomica 4.724

    Further on...another clear difference:

    "As for the people of India, those in the South are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians" -Strabo Geography.

    And another...

    The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the Southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically" -Arrian (Indica 6 9)

    As you can see, the Ancient Egyptians were certainly not depicted as black and were clearly seperated from Ethiopians and such phenotypically.

  16. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Helios For This Useful Post:

    Berber_Warrior (2014-07-15), Eliades (2011-08-17), Falsetruth (2011-08-17), NassBean (2019-02-15), Particula (2011-08-17)

  17. #10
    Established Member
    Molecular Biologist
    Last Online
    2013-08-30 @ 20:26
    Join Date
    2010-06-30
    Posts
    3,382
    Gender

    Default

    "All were huge, black-skinned [not the pure black of the Indians , more as you would imagine a half-caste Ethiopian], bare-headed, light of foot but broad of body. They were all speaking a barbarian language. "
    With regard to Delta Egyptians.

    Extracts presumably from Achilles Tatius: Leucippe and Clitophon

    "This boy is not merely black; he has thick lips and his legs are too thin..."
    - Lucian

    ---------- Post added 2011-08-17 at 19:00 ----------

    From lightest to darkest...

    Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant. flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilis Graecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.

    Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant
    perfusas hominum gentes; minus India tostos
    progenerat; tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo
    lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior
    mediumque facit moderata tenorem. Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris
    exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.
    Germany
    France
    Iberia
    Greece
    Syria

    ^ whites or off-whites

    Morocco
    Egypt
    India
    Sudan

    ^ black or half-caste

    ---------- Post added 2011-08-17 at 19:08 ----------

    Both Arrian and Strabo were born after the fall of the Ptolemaic Dynasty in Egypt, or the Late Dynastic Period. Their comparisons of Egyptians with North Indians is likely accurate for their time, or at least with regard to Lower Egypt. According to Achilles Tatius himself, an actual Greco-Egyptian, Delta Egyptians resembled "half-caste Ethiopians". This compliments anthropological evidence, regarding an increased Eurasian affinity in the region... possibly because of a population boom in the once sparely populated, possibly Levantine influenced, Delta/Sinai region.

    If I'm correct Arrian never visited Egypt.
    Last edited by Doctoris Scientia; 2011-08-17 at 20:19.

Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Foreigners with Horner dresses
    By Bahri_Negassi in forum Horn of Africa Tribune
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 2014-08-07, 01:57
  2. What did the first Africans or Humans looked like?
    By windie in forum Race & Ethnicity in Society
    Replies: 161
    Last Post: 2011-09-14, 23:00
  3. Foreigners and European crime
    By Papa Anodyne in forum Resources Vault
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 2011-04-05, 05:54
  4. Foreigners at Rome: Citizens and Strangers
    By Papa Anodyne in forum Resources Vault
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 2011-02-03, 04:37
  5. How somalia looked before the war
    By Excel in forum Horn of Africa Tribune
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 2010-02-08, 20:34

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
<