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Thread: Modern Egyptian Phenotypic Variation3136 days old

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    Default Modern Egyptian Phenotypic Variation

    Since I'm in Egypt right now I've had the opportunity to further observe the phenotypic variation among modern Egyptians; and from what I can confirm with my own eyes is that modern Egyptians are a clearly admixed population, in that the phenotypic evidence is clearly obvious among modern Egyptians in contrast to NW Africans. Likely reason for this phenotypic difference between Egyptians and NW Africans is that Egypt African ancestry is continues (supported by gene-flow via the the Nile/Sudan) and that the bulk of their Eurasian ancestry is relatively recent in my opinion, in comparison with NW Africans who possess African ancestry via sporadic population expansions into the region and the much more older presence of Eurasian ancestry in the region. I recently posted a long response on another thread in which I also made the same observation, in that case with regard to Lower Egyptians and their not so "Middle Eastern" appearance. I would therefore like to take the opportunity to showcase the phenotypic variation of the modern Egyptian population through the use of pictorial images of the Egyptian people. In addition, I would like to later discuss the cultural and social variation in Egypt, with regard to how Egyptians view themselves among other things. Lastly, I think my experience has reaffirmed how useless pictures could be in depicting the reality on the ground... most forumbiodiversity members who would classify modern Egypt as another Mediterranean country have another thing coming for them.

    One thing is clearly obvious, Egyptians are not Arabs... that's something that close to 100% of Egyptians would agree with.

    Nubians

    The Nubians from Kom Ombo and Aswan were surprisingly dark skinned, for some reason I had the assumption that they would be noticeably more mixed looking than your average Sudani. Some look Horner, but most are definitely distinct enough to not be mistaken for Horner outside the Horn. It's obvious to myself that the Nilo-Saharan ancestors of the Nubians isn't "Southern Sudanese", but rather Central Sudanese or Darfur-like.

    http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...1a5fd1b518.jpg
    ^ I met him
    http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...fec482d3c3.jpg
    http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...425x425Q85.jpg
    http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...nuba_woman.jpg
    http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1.../photo_21b.jpg

    Upper Egyptians from in between Aswan and Qena, in particular Edfu and Esna. They're the most obvious representation of the Ancient Egyptians in my honest opinion and unfortunately for some they're quite dark skin and cough"black"cough lol. They're not necessarily lighter skin than the Nubians, but are in most cases more reddish than the Nubians. Egyptians from Upper Egypt proper may resemble Horners, but are distinct enough as group to be grouped differently... they most resemble the Nubians.

    http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...rlEmKuvhYRCzJs
    ^ best representation of what I'm talking about
    http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...s/dscn9424.jpg
    http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...02/camel-7.jpg
    http://kememou.com/egyptians.jpg
    http://img1.photographersdirect.com/...m/pd757474.jpg

    Middle Egyptians from in between Gena and Cairo are noticeably lighter than their reddish-brown and dark brown counterparts in Upper Egypt but are oddly reminiscent of some new world mulattoes. They have golden like skin with a lot of phenotypic diversity, often broad, and curly/wavy hair... the Upper Egyptian type is also present, but not as dominant.

    http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...425x425Q85.jpg
    http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...425x425Q85.jpg
    http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...425x425Q85.jpg
    http://images.publicradio.org/conten...ields-3_23.jpg
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ian_fellah.jpg

    The Delta, i.e. Egypt north of Cairo, is largely in my honest opinion intermediate between Middle Egypt and the Levant. You have people that resemble the above and those that look "Middle Eastern", and the handful of Upper Egyptian types and often immigrant Nubian and Sudanese. I have noticed a noticeable difference between the rural and urban communities, but I'm not exactly positive if that difference is genetic.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/dil-han...n/photostream/
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/stits/[email protected]/
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/hope4happiness/2817590195/
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/hope4happiness/2818358802/
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/hope4ha...n/photostream/
    ^ random Upper Egyptian type, I've seen his face on three different people now... weird

    Further updates on the Sinai, Siwa, and Eastern Desert coming soon... or once I actually get there.
    Last edited by Doctoris Scientia; 2011-09-04 at 18:13.

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    I think there's a bias in your examples. Many Upper Egyptians and Nubians are not as dark as those examples and look quite intermixed with other Egyptians, at least those I have met did (abroad though).
    Last edited by Bandar Qasim; 2011-09-04 at 19:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctoris Scientia View Post
    Since I'm in Egypt right now I've had the opportunity to further observe the phenotypic variation among modern Egyptians; and from what I can confirm with my own eyes is that modern Egyptians are a clearly admixed population, in that the phenotypic evidence is clearly obvious among modern Egyptians in contrast to NW Africans. Likely reason for this phenotypic difference between Egyptians and NW Africans is that Egypt African ancestry is continues (supported by gene-flow via the the Nile/Sudan) and that the bulk of their Eurasian ancestry is relatively recent in my opinion, in comparison with NW Africans who possess African ancestry via sporadic population expansions into the region and the much more older presence of Eurasian ancestry in the region. I recently posted a long response on another thread in which I also made the same observation, in that case with regard to Lower Egyptians and their not so "Middle Eastern" appearance. I would therefore like to take the opportunity to showcase the phenotypic variation of the modern Egyptian population through the use of pictorial images of the Egyptian people. In addition, I would like to later discuss the cultural and social variation in Egypt, with regard to how Egyptians view themselves among other things. Lastly, I think my experience has reaffirmed how useless pictures could be in depicting the reality on the ground... most forumbiodiversity members who would classify modern Egypt as another Mediterranean country have another thing coming for them.

    One thing is clearly obvious, Egyptians are not Arabs... that's something that close to 100% of Egyptians would agree with.

    Nubians

    The Nubians from Kom Ombo and Aswan were surprisingly dark skinned, for some reason I had the assumption that they would be noticeably more mixed looking than your average Sudani. Some look Horner, but most are definitely distinct enough to not be mistaken for Horner outside the Horn. It's obvious to myself that the Nilo-Saharan ancestors of the Nubians isn't "Southern Sudanese", but rather Central Sudanese or Darfur-like.

    http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...1a5fd1b518.jpg
    ^ I met him
    http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...fec482d3c3.jpg
    http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...425x425Q85.jpg
    http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...nuba_woman.jpg
    http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1.../photo_21b.jpg

    Upper Egyptians from in between Aswan and Qena, in particular Edfu and Esna. They're the most obvious representation of the Ancient Egyptians in my honest opinion and unfortunately for some they're quite dark skin and cough"black"cough lol. They're not necessarily lighter skin than the Nubians, but are in most cases more reddish than the Nubians. Egyptians from Upper Egypt proper may resemble Horners, but are distinct enough as group to be grouped differently... they most resemble the Nubians.

    http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...rlEmKuvhYRCzJs
    ^ best representation of what I'm talking about
    http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...s/dscn9424.jpg
    http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...02/camel-7.jpg
    http://kememou.com/egyptians.jpg
    http://img1.photographersdirect.com/...m/pd757474.jpg

    Middle Egyptians from in between Gena and Cairo are noticeably lighter than their reddish-brown and dark brown counterparts in Upper Egypt but are oddly reminiscent of some new world mulattoes. They have golden like skin with a lot of phenotypic diversity, often broad, and curly/wavy hair... the Upper Egyptian type is also present, but not as dominant.

    http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...425x425Q85.jpg
    http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...425x425Q85.jpg
    http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...425x425Q85.jpg
    http://images.publicradio.org/conten...ields-3_23.jpg
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ian_fellah.jpg

    The Delta, i.e. Egypt north of Cairo, is largely in my honest opinion intermediate between Middle Egypt and the Levant. You have people that resemble the above and those that look "Middle Eastern", and the handful of Upper Egyptian types and often immigrant Nubian and Sudanese. I have noticed a noticeable difference between the rural and urban communities, but I'm not exactly positive if that difference is genetic.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/dil-han...n/photostream/
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/stits/[email protected]/
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/hope4happiness/2817590195/
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/hope4happiness/2818358802/
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/hope4ha...n/photostream/
    ^ random Upper Egyptian type, I've seen his face on three different people now... weird

    Further updates on the Sinai, Siwa, and Eastern Desert coming soon... or once I actually get there.
    I can confirm, the last set of pictures look pretty accurate for Caïro(and, adding middle-egyptians to it, logically for many egyptians, as many live in the fertile lands/delta).
    Last edited by Ilias; 2011-09-04 at 19:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandar Qasim View Post
    I think there's a bias in your examples. Many Nubian and Upper Egyptians are not as dark as those examples and look quite intermixed with other Egyptians, at least those I have met did (abroad though).
    I was in Nubia and visited the proxy Nubian village, that's where I met that Nubian guy in the first picture, and I can honestly confirm that most of the Nubians in Aswan and Kom Ombo where "dark skinned" and resembled the men and women in the pictures. There were some lighter types, but most of these were well within the range of typical Sudanese diversity for example. The Upper Egyptian pictures are very representative of the Egyptians from Luxor-Aswan... especially man number 1.

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    Then explain why the people in these random videos from Aswan (Southern Egypt) look quite different from your examples:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7aX04abAG4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zuESoUJLaY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoMm1TwvN1c
    Last edited by Bandar Qasim; 2011-09-04 at 19:22.

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    Exciting thread, but what the hell are you doing in Egypt, Doc, if I may ask?

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    This thread is going to be 200 pages long by tomorrow morning, I imagine.

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    I agree that the Upper Egyptians are probably the closest phenotype to the average Ancient Egyptian. They have the reddish brown hue that the Egyptians commonly displayed in their art.

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    This is some great stuff. It's like Egypt gradually gets lighter from Upper Egypt to the Delta.
    Last edited by jonboyclem; 2011-09-04 at 19:28.

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    so the conclusion you draw. todays Egyptians are so admixed that they cant be taken as reference for ancient Egyptians?

    Egypt African ancestry is continues (supported by gene-flow via the the Nile/Sudan) and that the bulk of their Eurasian ancestry is relatively recent in my opinion,
    Totally banal afro-centric nonsense.

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