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Thread: Who were the Elamites?2892 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by StarDS9 View Post
    It is Elamite soldier, Persian soldiers wore different clothes.
    .
    This soldier member of the Imperial Guard (Immortals ) Members of the Imperial Guard should be Medes or Persians

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashrf1979 View Post
    This soldier member of the Imperial Guard (Immortals ) Members of the Imperial Guard should be Medes or Persians
    Do you have a source? Most people have referred to it depicting Elamites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Do you have a source? Most people have referred to it depicting Elamites.
    You are the first person to say that the Imperial Guard were members of the Elamites
    Persian Imperial Guard members were chosen from the noble Iranian families(aryan) ,Members of the lower classes of people can not be members of the Imperial Guard Iranians of the lower classes who were serving in the infantry divisions (Paykan) As well as non-Iranians can not serve in the Imperial Guard



    Apadana Hall, 5th century BC carving of Persian and Median soldiers in traditional costume (Medians are wearing rounded hats and boots)

    'Immortals'

    Persian palace guard, found at Susa. Now in the Louvre, Paris.
    Persian soldier, from Susa (Louvre, Paris)
    Immortals: Greek name for an elite regiment in the ancient Achaemenid empire.

    In his description of the battle of Thermopylae (480 BCE), the Greek researcher Herodotus mentions a Persian elite corps which he calls the Ten Thousand or the Athanatoi, the 'Immortals'. He describes them as

    a body of picked Persians under the leadership of Hydarnes, the son of Hydarnes. This corps was known as the Immortals, because it was invariably kept up to strength; if a man was killed or fell sick, the vacancy he left was at once filled, so that the total strength of the corps was never less -and never more- than ten thousand.
    Of all the troops in Persian army, the native Persians were not only the best but also the most magnificently equipped; their dress and armor I have mentioned already, but I should add that every man glittered with the gold which he carried about his person in unlimited quantity. They were accompanied, moreover, by covered carriages full of their women and servants, all elaborately fitted out. Special food, separate from that of the rest of the army, was brought along for them on dromedaries and mules. (Histories 7.83; tr. Aubrey de Selincourt)

    As he indicates, Herodotus has already mentioned the Persian equipment:

    The dress of these troops consisted of the tiara, or soft felt cap, embroidered tunic with sleeves, a coat of mail looking like the scales of a fish, and trousers; for arms they carried light wicker shields, quivers slung below them, short spears, powerful bows with cane arrows, and short swords swinging from belts beside the right thigh. (Histories 7.61; tr. Aubrey de Selincourt)

    We also learn from Herodotus that this elite corps played an important during the Battle of Thermopylae. The Greeks had blocked a narrow road along the coast and prevented the Persians from invading Greece. However, the Immortals made a detour and were able to attack the Greeks in the rear. They are also mentioned during the second year of the war, in 479 BCE, when they remain in Greece in the army of the Persian commander Mardonius.
    Ancient-Warfare.com, the online home of Ancient Warfare magazine
    Glazed relief of a soldier from Susa. Louvre, Paris (France). Photo Marco Prins.
    The counterweight of a spear

    The big problem with this elite corps is that they are unknown from other sources. (There are, of course, other Greek and Latin texts that mention the Immortals, but they have taken this name for the Persian elite troops from Herodotus and simply mean: the royal guard.) There is ample evidence from Persia - e.g., the Persepolis fortification tablets - but it does not mention a corps of Immortals. Probably, Herodotus' informant has confused the name Anûšiya ('companions') with Anauša ('Immortals').

    The historians of Alexander the Great mention another elite regiment, which they call the Apple Bearers. Their spears had a small metal counterweight to balance the heavy point. Because this counterweight resembled an apple, they received their remarkable surname. Several scholars believe they are identical to the Immortals.
    http://www.livius.org/ia-in/immortals/immortals.html
    Last edited by ashrf1979; 2012-05-14 at 14:57.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Those guys in the reliefs are extremely dark brown though. Even their feet are pretty brown and the feet are normally one of the least exposed areas to sunlight. Although, I can imagine they might have been very exposed if someone was barefoot or in sandals. I'm sure the majority of Middle Easterners can tan a few shades darker than their natural skin tone but I'm sure the people who created the reliefs would take tanning into consideration.

    I mean the ancient Egyptians depicted Libyans as very pale in comparison to themselves and many Libyans can tan extremely well into various shades of brown.
    I did not mean they were pale or similar to North Iranians, they probably had the same skin tone as South Iraqi's and current South west iranians. Also because the egyptians depicated untanned reliefs does not mean the Elamites did the same.

    Here for example, in modern iran a Lor from further north can get this dark, even been covered most of the time and in the ancient times soldiers were always training in the sun.

    http://www.pasargad-tours.com/upload.../Bakhtiari.jpg

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-14 at 15:15 ----------

    Ten Thousand Immortals


    Ten Thousand Immortals, Artaxerxes, Palace of: Two of the Ten Thousand Immortals [Credit: Courtesy of the Musée du Louvre, Paris; photograph, Cliché Musées Nationaux, Paris] in Persian history, core troops in the Achaemenian army, so named because their number of 10,000 was immediately reestablished after every loss. Under the direct leadership of the hazarapat, or commander in chief, the Immortals, who formed the king’s personal bodyguard, consisted primarily of Persians but also included Medes and Elamites. They apparently had special privileges, such as being allowed to take concubines and servants along with them on the march. On coloured glazed bricks and carved reliefs found at the Achaemenian capitals, such as the Palace of Artaxerxes at Susa, the Immortals are often represented standing stiffly at attention, each soldier’s wooden spear with its silver blade and pomegranate insignia held upright and resting firmly on his toe. They wore elaborate robes and much gold jewelry. An elite 1,000 of the Immortals were further distinguished by having gold pomegranates on their spears.
    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...sand-Immortals

    Those reliefs in Susa were probably of Elamites, you can see clearly that their head gear was differnt to that of the Persians and Medes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StarDS9 View Post
    I did not mean they were pale or similar to North Iranians, they probably had the same skin tone as South Iraqi's and current South west iranians. Also because the egyptians depicated untanned reliefs does not mean the Elamites did the same.

    Here for example, in modern iran a Lor from further north can get this dark, even been covered most of the time and in the ancient times soldiers were always training in the sun.

    [url]http://www.pasargad-tours.com/uploads/images/EN/Bakhtiari.jpg

    I'm not saying they necessarily did but implying that it's possibility the Elamites were naturally some shade of brown. Likely light to medium brown if they could tan to that shade of dark brown.

    Anyways, that old man does look very tanned but it's hard to tell from this picture what his natural shade of skin tone would be.

    Personally, I think the Elamites remind me of naturally darker Baloch. Although, Baloch are from the Southeast of Iran/Southwest of Pakistan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Thank you, mac. George Starostin argues for his point fairly convincingly. The gist of the paper seems to be as follows -
    • - The Elamo-Dravidian hypothesis is based on somewhat shaky grounds, especially the aspects of semantic and lexicological similarity.
    • - He argues that the similarities between Elamite and Dravidian affixes (specifically suffix morphemes) presented by David McAlpin, finds seemingly similar parallels in Afro-Asiatic to an appreciable extent.
    • - He cautions that he is not particularly writing of McAlpin's findings as invalid, but rather warns that at this point it would be more scientifically rational to remain agnostic about the issue given the above parallels found in Afro-Asiatic tongues.
    • - He quite effectively presents his argument with the example list of words towards the end of the paper and shows how the Dravidian-Elamite parallels also have similar analogous grammatical parallels in Afro-Asiatic.
    • - The only conclusion he seems to affirmatively state is that, if anything, Dravidian languages certainly belong to the Nostratic languages, which is virtually a pan-Eurasian hypothetical linguistic macro-family either way. This makes perfect sense.

    Linguistics aside, I'm very tempted to say that the genetic evidence of present day populations (or at least, their counterparts elsewhere) that were in proximity with the region the Elamites are said to have inhabited, compels me to support the Elamo-Dravidian hypothesis. Balochis currently mainly inhabit the South-Eastern parts of Iran, while the Elamites occupied the South-Western parts. Perhaps the ancient southerners of Iran were genetically similar to each other. The HGDP Balochi samples which are from Gulistan, Qilla Abdullah district in Northwestern Balochistan province of Pakistan tend to have a component modal in them, which is also the main West-Eurasian component of present day South-Asians. I'm tempted to tentatively propose that a group speaking Elamo-Dravidian languages, likely agricultural revolutionaries of some sort entered South-Asia via the western parts and thereon dispersed and spread Dravidian languages in the region. As I have mentioned before;
    Both Iran and Pakistan-India have similar Neolithic periods. South-Asia and Iran also have very similar datings for their Neolithic settlements/sites. For instance, the earliest Neolithic site in South Asia is Mehrgarh, dated to 7500 BC, in the Kachi plain of Baluchistan, Pakistan - this site has evidence of farming (wheat and barley) and herding (cattle, sheep and goats). Iran also has similar sites, such as Čhoga Bonut (7200 BC) and Ganj Dareh (7000 BC). The fact that Iranians exhibit the highest amounts of these Balochistan-centered components, and that the one of the oldest Neolithic settlement in South-Asia is in Balochistan corroborates with the empirical evidence provided by the Neolithic sites. Iranians have the highest shared ancestry with South/South-Central Asians, as evidenced by their Gedrosia/West-Central Asian/Baloch scores relative to other West-Asians.
    In short, I hypothesize that the vast majority of the West-Eurasian fraction of the South-Asian genetic canvas is but the handiwork of ancestral Dravidian-speakers. And, the appreciable Gerdrosia (Dodecad Ancestry Project)/West-Central Asian (Eurogenes BGA)/Baloch (Harappa Ancestry Project) seen across ADMIXTURE analyses among present day West-Asians might perhaps be the genetic artifact of contact with Elamites; but also, shared Neolithic West-Asian ancestry.

    It'd be great if forum members with knowledge on the linguistic affinities of Elamite and also Sumerian joined the conversation and gave their two cents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasishta View Post
    Would anyone have a linguistic study on some basic words and also numerals in the Elamite language? I recently observed that the Sumerian word for city is uur/uuru. Interestingly enough, the Dravidian word for city too is ooru/oor. I was wondering what the word for city or town was in Elamite and whether the existence of such a cognate across all three languages further substantiates the validity of the Elamo-Dravidian language family and/or the possible borrowing of a few words by the ancestral Elamites and Dravidians from the Sumerians. There are some other similar words shared between Sumerian and Dravidian -
    • - Sumerian uru (with a short u pronunciation) means to till or grow. Ulu means to-till in Kannada (Dravidian) and urpini has the same meaning in Tulu (also Dravidian).
    • - The Sumerian word for the numeral five is ia/i. It is ain in Tulu, aidu in Kannada and anju/aintu in Tamil.
    • - Sig (which entails sun burnt clay tiles in Sumerian) finds analogous counterparts in the Kannada word Sike or seke (which translates into sunny sultriness) and Sigadi in Tulu (which translates into fire place/oven).
    Could tbe the other way around couldn't it?

    What do you think of the idea of IVC and Sumerian colonies in each other's lands? Does genetics support it?

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-07 at 00:16 ----------

    Nostratic isn't accepted. I also really doubt either Elamite or Dravidian is/was Afro-asiatic or proto dravidians/proto elamites had proto afro-asiatic admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashrf1979 View Post
    This soldier member of the Imperial Guard (Immortals ) Members of the Imperial Guard should be Medes or Persians
    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Do you have a source? Most people have referred to it depicting Elamites.
    Immortals were Persians.
    "ten thousand chosen Persians ... these Persians were called "Immortals," because, if any one of them made the number incomplete, being overcome either by death or disease, another man was chosen to his place, and they were never either more or fewer than ten thousand."
    http://ancienthistory.about.com/libr...odotus_7_5.htm


    Last edited by saran; 2012-12-14 at 03:50.

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