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Thread: Zoroastrianism Information3620 days old

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshK View Post
    Indian Parsis have Gujurati admixture for the most part.

    Agree with the rest of what you said, though.
    They claim to be completely unmixed descendants of the original zoroastrians who migrated to India from Iran after the 7th century.

    However, that claim is not born out by genetic testing and they have large Indic genetic influences, especially maternally

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iranian View Post
    They claim to be completely unmixed descendants of the original zoroastrians who migrated to India from Iran after the 7th century.

    However, that claim is not born out by genetic testing and they have large Indic genetic influences, especially maternally
    If we presume Parsi males are solely the descendants of Zoroastrian Persians from the Sassanid period, then we have a very good idea about their principal Y-DNA lineages;

    Parsi (Qamar et al.)
    n=90
    P-92R7(xR1a1a) - 26.7% (presumably other R clades such as R2)
    Y*(xA,C,DE,H2,J,K) - 3.3% (potentially be G, H1, I, most likely G considering it's distribution across the Indo-Iranian world)
    R1a1a-M17 - 7.8%
    J-12f2 - 38.9% (probably J2 > J1 to match the trend across Iranic-speaking ethnic groups)
    E-SRY8299(xE1b1a) - 5.6% (obviously E1b1b)
    L-M20 - 17.8%

    The frequencies would have definitely changed due to genetic drift, so a quantitative analysis of what the ancient Persians carried (i.e. "they had more L than R1a1a") is unfeasible here.

    Saying that, we could therefore conclude the ancient Persians carried R1a1a (and other R clades), J and L, with residual amounts of other haplogroups that are otherwise rare in India.
    Last edited by Humata; 2010-06-17 at 08:07.

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    Humata, do you have any info on their mt-DNA? I would vouch for high frequencies of U7 if their admixture with Gujuratis is restricted on the maternal side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humata View Post
    If we presume Parsi males are solely the descendants of Zoroastrian Persians from the Sassanid period, then we have a very good idea about their principle Y-DNA lineages;

    Parsi (Qamar et al.)
    n=90
    P-92R7(xR1a1a) - 26.7% (presumably other R clades such as R2)
    Y*(xA,C,DE,H2,J,K) - 3.3% (potentially be G, H1, I, most likely G considering it's distribution across the Indo-Iranian world)
    R1a1a-M17 - 7.8%
    J-12f2 - 38.9% (probably J2 > J1 to match the trend across Iranic-speaking ethnic groups)
    E-SRY8299(xE1b1a) - 5.6% (obviously E1b1b)
    L-M20 - 17.8%

    The frequencies would have definitely changed due to genetic drift, so a quantitative analysis of what the ancient Persians carried (i.e. "they had more L than R1a1a") is unfeasible here.
    Interesting. Frequencies of J approaching 40% are unheard of in the Indian Subcontinent. Paternally , they do appear to be genuine descendants of iranian zoroastrians

    Do you have any data on their mtDNA distribution?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iranian
    Interesting. Frequencies of J approaching 40% are unheard of in the Indian Subcontinent. Paternally , they do appear to be genuine descendants of iranian zoroastrians
    Which subclade of J are you referring to in specific?

    The highest frequencies of J2 Y-DNA for any ethnic group in the world is recorded in the Vellalas of Tamil Nadu, who are a socially dominant, higher social class Shudra caste.

    There is no such thing as a middle caste as such, there is upper castes and the Shudras. Outside of this spectrum are the Dalits and Adivasis, but anyhow, to quote:

    Sengupta et al. (2006)

    Vellalar (India, South; Middle caste; Dravidian)
    9/31 = 29.0% H1-M52
    12/31 = 38.7% J2b2-M241
    5/31 = 16.1% L1-M76
    1/31 = 3.2% Q1a3-M346
    4/31 = 12.9% R1a1a-M17

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshK View Post
    Humata, do you have any info on their mt-DNA? I would vouch for high frequencies of U7 if their admixture with Gujuratis is restricted on the maternal side.
    In one study on 44 Parsi's, they found the following in order of decreasing frequency;

    M* - 54.5%
    U4 - 13.6%
    HV2 - 9.1%
    T1 - 6.8%
    T* - 4.5%
    U1 - 4.5%
    HV* - 2.3%
    H - 2.3%
    U7 - 2.3%

    The predominance of M* is enough to confirm they are maternally more Indian than Iranian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humata View Post
    In one study on 44 Parsi's, they found the following in order of decreasing frequency;

    M* - 54.5%
    U4 - 13.6%
    HV2 - 9.1%
    T1 - 6.8%
    T* - 4.5%
    U1 - 4.5%
    HV* - 2.3%
    H - 2.3%
    U7 - 2.3%

    The predominance of M* is enough to confirm they are maternally more Indian than Iranian.
    I think it can be partly explained by the fact that men typically outnumber women in any immigrant population and so they probably filled the gender gap with local women

    i think that there has also been other forms of mixing in the past few centuries

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iranian View Post
    Interesting. Frequencies of J approaching 40% are unheard of in the Indian Subcontinent. Paternally , they do appear to be genuine descendants of iranian zoroastrians
    Brahmins tend to have a fair bit of Y-DNA J2 (e.g. Sengupta et al. found Uttar Pradesh Brahmins to be 28.5% albeit from a sample size of 14), but it appears to be more common in the West and North, and less so elsewhere.

    I think Parsis serve as a reliable proxy for what the ancient Persians carried. It's worth pointing out that the same R1a1a-L-J2-R2-G combo is carried by most other Iranian-speakers, including Pashtuns.

    Further evidence of this can be seen in the isolated mountains of Tajikistan. Wells et al. tested a handful of men from several villages across the Pamir mountain range, and the results varied wildly between each.
    The Ishkashimi's and Khojanti's were over 60% R1a1a-M17, Yet the people living by the Yaghnob river were 32% J2-M172 and 32% R1*-M173(xR1a1a, potentially R1b-M343 of some kind). In addition, the Bartangi's were 23% F-M89 (most probably G-M201) and 17% R2-M174. Finally, L-M20 was found at 12% and 16% in the Ishkashimi and Shugnani's respectively.
    Despite the wild differences in figures, nearly all these isolated regions had R1a1a, J2, L and R2.

    I'm not a believer in coincidences; couple this with the Parsi results, and we're looking at the ancestral pool of the settled Indo-Iranians. It's also no coincidence that Brahmins tend to also be R1a1a, J2, R2 and L; we even have a Brahmin R2 on this forum.

    Do you have any data on their mtDNA distribution?
    For your and JoshK's attention, please refer to one of my newer posts on this thread.
    Last edited by Humata; 2010-06-17 at 08:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humata View Post
    If we presume Parsi males are solely the descendants of Zoroastrian Persians from the Sassanid period, then we have a very good idea about their principal Y-DNA lineages;

    Parsi (Qamar et al.)
    n=90
    P-92R7(xR1a1a) - 26.7% (presumably other R clades such as R2)
    Y*(xA,C,DE,H2,J,K) - 3.3% (potentially be G, H1, I, most likely G considering it's distribution across the Indo-Iranian world)
    R1a1a-M17 - 7.8%
    J-12f2 - 38.9% (probably J2 > J1 to match the trend across Iranic-speaking ethnic groups)
    E-SRY8299(xE1b1a) - 5.6% (obviously E1b1b)
    L-M20 - 17.8%

    The frequencies would have definitely changed due to genetic drift, so a quantitative analysis of what the ancient Persians carried (i.e. "they had more L than R1a1a") is unfeasible here.

    Saying that, we could therefore conclude the ancient Persians carried R1a1a (and other R clades), J and L, with residual amounts of other haplogroups that are otherwise rare in India.
    From what I read the Parsi male lineage is Iranian Zoroastrian in origin but they mixed with local South Asian women so their mtDNA is more South Asian.

    My take on this is they cannot be fully Iranian from the male lineage either, they tend to have a higher percentage of R2 in them than other normal Iranian populations, we're talking about 20% and more here, in normal Iranians from what I have seen this haplogroup shows up anywhere between 1% to 5% max, some of their R2 must be from a South Asian mix while the other is surely Iranian, no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by birko19 View Post
    we're talking about 20% and more here, in normal Iranians from what I have seen this haplogroup shows up anywhere between 1% to 5% max, some of their R2 must be from a South Asian mix while the other is surely Iranian, no?
    That is a valid point
    I dont think 20% R2 can be found in any region that was once once ruled by the Sassanid empire

    The parsis have been living in India for over a millennium and large amounts of admixture are to be expected
    I would still argue that significantly more than half of their paternal Y-DNA originates in Iran

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