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Thread: Zoroastrianism Information3622 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by birko19 View Post
    From what I read the Parsi male lineage is Iranian Zoroastrian in origin but they mixed with local South Asian women so their mtDNA is more South Asian.

    My take on this is they cannot be fully Iranian from the male lineage either, they tend to have a higher percentage of R2 in them than other normal Iranian populations, we're talking about 20% and more here, in normal Iranians from what I have seen this haplogroup shows up anywhere between 1% to 5% max, some of their R2 must be from a South Asian mix while the other is surely Iranian, no?
    The Parsi are a textbook example of a founder effect, which is a specific subset of genetic drift. I had described it in the past as:

    Founder effect - Changes in the allelic frequency of a group that represents a splinter from the host population. The allelic frequency of the splinter group is both random and different from the host population. Another specific subset of genetic drift.
    As mentioned in my earlier post, it is impossible to ascertain what the frequencies of those haplogroups in Zoroastrian Persia were because of genetic drift (quantitative analysis). Perhaps, as one would expect, R1a1a was initially higher than R2, but chance gave the R2 male(s) to procreate more for whatever reason.
    The fact that R1a1a, R2, L and J2 (the common pack of lineages in nearly all modern Indo-Iranian speakers) were found at all give us a very good idea of what those Zoroastrian Persians carried (qualitative analysis).

    One caveat to this is Parsis largely descend from South-Central Persians; we have no idea whether the medieval North Iranians were similar or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iranian View Post
    That is a valid point
    I dont think 20% R2 can be found in any region that was once once ruled by the Sassanid empire

    The parsis have been living in India for over a millennium and large amounts of admixture are to be expected
    I would still argue that significantly more than half of their paternal Y-DNA originates in Iran
    Well I'm not saying all of those R2's are Indian, but usually R2 and L in Iran and the middle east is lower than usual, anything above 10% and I'm pretty positive we're talking about some South Asian mix here, the same goes for R1a1a which is the most dominant haplogroup in India.

    A good majority of them surely come from ancient Iranians, but I think some of them do come from Indian groups as well.

    ---------- Post added 2010-06-17 at 21:11 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Humata View Post
    As mentioned in my earlier post, it is impossible to ascertain what the frequencies of those haplogroups in Zoroastrian Persia were because of genetic drift (quantitative analysis). Perhaps, as one would expect, R1a1a was initially higher than R2, but chance gave the R2 male(s) to procreate more for whatever reason.
    The fact that R1a1a, R2, L and J2 (the common pack of lineages in nearly all modern Indo-Iranian speakers) were found at all give us a very good idea of what those Zoroastrian Persians carried (qualitative analysis).

    One caveat to this is Parsis largely descend from South-Central Persians; we have no idea whether the medieval North Iranians were similar or not.
    Well is there any place where R1a1a does not outnumber R2? That haplogroup is such a horde lol.

    What's the diversity of these haplogroups among them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humata View Post
    The Parsi are a textbook example of a founder effect.
    haha, id forgotten about that and its been only a little over a year since i took a intro to genetics course

    That is certainly a possibility; if a small but relatively significant patriarchal clan of R2 Iranians had formed a significant portion of the initial immigrants that could have created the effect we are seeing here

    although i wouldn't discard the possibility of South Asian paternal genetic input

    Having said that, i dont think it impossible for the Parsis to have remained , at least paternally, Iranian all this time.
    Given the fact that they werent allowed by the local indians to preach their religion and the fact that they are extremely endogamous.
    Last edited by Iranian; 2010-06-17 at 22:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by birko19 View Post
    Well I'm not saying all of those R2's are Indian, but usually R2 and L in Iran and the middle east is lower than usual, anything above 10% and I'm pretty positive we're talking about some South Asian mix here, the same goes for R1a1a which is the most dominant haplogroup in India.

    A good majority of them surely come from ancient Iranians, but I think some of them do come from Indian groups as well.[COLOR="Silver"]
    As I said, the current frequency of R2 and L in Parsis means nothing. Those inflated frequencies may well be due to genetic drift, which clearly happened with J-12f2, which is slightly higher than parts of West Iran, even.

    I'm dissuaded from the possibility of South Indian Y-DNA input due to the sparsity of H. If there was some subclade definition for L, we'd have a much better idea of how much Indian paternal heritage the Parsis have from the prevalence of L1 amongst them.

    Nevertheless, at this point, both are equally plausible.

    Well is there any place where R1a1a does not outnumber R2? That haplogroup is such a horde lol.

    What's the diversity of these haplogroups among them?
    R2 actually outnumbers R1a1a in the Kurmanji-speaking Kurds of Georgia. I believe they have an oral tradition claiming descent from the Arsacid dynasty that ruled Transcaucasian Iberia. The Arsacids were Parthians (Ashkanians), who probably came from South-Central Asia.

    As I haven't seen Y-DNA STR's, I have no idea how diverse the Parsi lineages are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iranian View Post
    haha, id forgotten about that and its been only a little over a year since i took a intro to genetics course

    That is certainly a possibility; if a small but relatively significant patriarchal clan of R2 Iranians had formed a significant portion of the initial immigrants that could have created the effect we are seeing here

    although i wouldn't discard the possibility of South Asian paternal genetic input

    Having said that, i dont think it impossible for the Parsis to have remained , at least paternally, Iranian all this time.
    Given the fact that they werent allowed by the local indians to preach their religion and the fact that they are extremely endogamous.
    I think it depends on how their culture is, if their male lineage is very important to them the same sense Arab tribes deal with, I think it's safe to assume that most of their male lineage is indeed Iranian that married into South Asian women.

    Among Jews for example the mother lineage is what matters the most, if your mother is not a Jew, you're not a Jew even if your father was the Rabbe of Satmars lol.

    ---------- Post added 2010-06-17 at 21:33 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Humata View Post
    R2 actually outnumbers R1a1a in the Kurmanji-speaking Kurds of Georgia. I believe they have an oral tradition claiming descent from the Arsacid dynasty that ruled Transcaucasian Iberia. The Arsacids were Parthians (Ashkanians), who probably came from South-Central Asia.

    As I haven't seen Y-DNA STR's, I have no idea how diverse the Parsi lineages are.
    The Kurmanji speakers from Georgia are Yezidies, they are usually a very closed small community and do not accept converts, also their tradition does not say Parthian, oddly they say they migrated from India and have been living in the middle east since 2000 BC, I believe the study had a sample of 25 and these were the lineages:

    R2 - 44%
    J2 - 32%
    F* - 12%
    K* - 8%
    P* - 4%

    I don't think 25 people is enough, but their tradition of coming from India does aid the top three lineages if we take this sample seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humata View Post
    I'm not a believer in coincidences; couple this with the Parsi results, and we're looking at the ancestral pool of the settled Indo-Iranians. It's also no coincidence that Brahmins tend to also be R1a1a, J2, R2 and L; we even have a Brahmin R2 on this forum.
    So far the Brahmin samples have been taken from the poorer temple priest/pusaari classes as far as Southern Brahmins are concerned.

    These make a minority in Tamil Brahmins, but are still 30% R1a, much more so than Dalit UPites or Gujuratis.

    In my opinion, L is not a Y-DNA that was carried by the IndoEuropeans.

    I would attribute the existence of L among these Brahmins to ancient "Brahmanized" converts, who were possibly from the socially dominant pre-Aryan, Dravidian upper classes.

    The samples taken distort the results, really. The higher social class Brahmins are extremely staunch and thus the touch of scientific instruments is seen as unclean/impure/polluting by them.

    Many ethnologists/anthropologists have said they faced the same very problem, thus consequently, the lower class racially mixed Brahmins were the ones who obliged to carry out the craniometric measurements, and in this present day, dna tests.

    We need pan-Indian dna testing to give us the real picture, but too many damn people..

    For the sake of discussion, L also seems to be a clearly Europid marker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humata View Post
    As I said, the current frequency of R2 and L in Parsis means nothing. Those inflated frequencies may well be due to genetic drift, which clearly happened with J-12f2, which is slightly higher than parts of West Iran, even.

    I'm dissuaded from the possibility of South Indian Y-DNA input due to the sparsity of H. If there was some subclade definition for L, we'd have a much better idea of how much Indian paternal heritage the Parsis have from the prevalence of L1 amongst them.

    Nevertheless, at this point, both are equally plausible.



    R2 actually outnumbers R1a1a in the Kurmanji-speaking Kurds of Georgia. I believe they have an oral tradition claiming descent from the Arsacid dynasty that ruled Transcaucasian Iberia. The Arsacids were Parthians (Ashkanians), who probably came from South-Central Asia.

    As I haven't seen Y-DNA STR's, I have no idea how diverse the Parsi lineages are.
    Parsis settled in Gujrat and as far as I know the Gujrat-Sindh-Balochistan costal areas have the highest frequencies of R2 in the subcontinent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Servia View Post
    You muslims should convert to zoroastrism imo!

    It's better and more peaceful than islam.

    Zarathustra was his real name* And he lived in modern day Turkmenistan then under Persian influence.
    that just one these another is that he was from urmiye what i think is even more possible because the word Mazda was first used among meds and the region of Urmiye was former Median land.

    ---------- Post added 2010-07-26 at 05:17 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Humata View Post


    R2 actually outnumbers R1a1a in the Kurmanji-speaking Kurds of Georgia. I believe they have an oral tradition claiming descent from the Arsacid dynasty that ruled Transcaucasian Iberia. The Arsacids were Parthians (Ashkanians), who probably came from South-Central Asia.

    As I haven't seen Y-DNA STR's, I have no idea how diverse the Parsi lineages are.
    Thats true. Most of Kurds from Georgia and Armenia are Ezidi Kurds and that also supports my these Ezidi kurds beeing original Parthians with mithraist religion because even today they worship the sun and a bird called Tauzi Melek. The Reason why they only found 4-5% R2 among kurds of Anatolia is because they are mostly not ezidis. The Ezidis of Gerogia and Armenia are not much more than 10-20 Thousand. In Mosul there are also like 100-150 Thousand Ezidis. in The hole World their number is like 500 thousand. But another these is that they are the indoarians of Mitanni Period.

    ---------- Post added 2010-07-26 at 05:21 ----------

    [/COLOR]

    The Kurmanji speakers from Georgia are Yezidies, they are usually a very closed small community and do not accept converts, also their tradition does not say Parthian, oddly they say they migrated from India and have been living in the middle east since 2000 BC, I believe the study had a sample of 25 and these were the lineages:

    R2 - 44%
    J2 - 32%
    F* - 12%
    K* - 8%
    P* - 4%

    I don't think 25 people is enough, but their tradition of coming from India does aid the top three lineages if we take this sample seriously.
    Ezidis never claimed to be from India. They claim that many of Ezidis flet to india and also living their.
    Last edited by Bioguy; 2010-07-26 at 06:28.

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    Freddie Mercury was a Parsi from Gujarat and he didn't even look remotely Indian, despite his family living there for several centuries. While I'm sure there was some intermixing, I'd wager most Parsis are nearly as Iranian as their ancestors were 1,000 years ago when they left Persia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alfieb View Post
    Freddie Mercury was a Parsi from Gujarat and he didn't even look remotely Indian, despite his family living there for several centuries. While I'm sure there was some intermixing, I'd wager most Parsis are nearly as Iranian as their ancestors were 1,000 years ago when they left Persia.
    some of them yes but the majority i don´t think so because when they flet from Iran they had no woman( because priest are male) so how could they reproduce themself without marriage with some local Indian girls Iam 100% sure that they mixed with femal Indian people. Thats why their mtDna is somehow more Indian than Iranian.

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