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View Poll Results: Is Central-Eastern Europe the proto-Indo-European urheimat?

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  • Yes, PIE urheimat is in, around or close to Poland (Corded Ware culture)

    15 17.65%
  • Yes, PIE urheimat is somewhere in the Pontic-Caspian steppe (Yamnaya horizon; Pit Grave culture)

    38 44.71%
  • No, I favour the Anatolian/Armenian/Balkan/Glottalic etc. hypothesis

    32 37.65%
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Thread: Is Central-Eastern Europe the proto-Indo-European urheimat? [split] //mod2554 days old

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    Default Is Central-Eastern Europe the proto-Indo-European urheimat? [split] //mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Don View Post
    Right, but do you think it's a bit unfair that now any random blue-eyed Nordic European can claim to be a Aryan? Like a certain French person on anthroscpae who was bragging about his alleged connection with the Europids of central Asia just because of the fact that he displays Nordic traits like they do? It's become pretty ridiculous.
    No, it doesn't mean blond, blue eyed Northern Euros are Aryans. And yes, the French dude is an idiot.

    However, I think Slavs are the best surviving example of what the original Europids who colonized Asia were like, but that's only because the real ones are all gone, so I suppose Slavs are the next best thing, but still not exactly it.
    For some reason, these efforts to try and document ancient population movements and ancestral connections are always turned into accusations that this or that modern group wants to claim glory via links to this or that ancient group.

    It really doesn't matter whether Slavs can be termed the next best thing to the ancient Andronovo groups, or not. What matters is that the close relationship between modern Slavs and these ancient tribes shows us where they came from, how they expanded, and thus how modern groups are related to each other via that expansion.

    The picture is very clear now. All the bullshit about Eastern Europe being overrun by Indians, Central Asians or North Caucasians is just that, pure bullshit. I wouldn't mind it if it were true, but as it is, it's pure bullshit, and so I fail to see the reason why some people continue with it.

    Truth is, the expansion took place from Central-Eastern Europe. That's why there are no Asian Z93+ lineages in Europe. And that's why mtDNA lineages derived from those found in Neolithic Ukrainians are seen in Andronovo kurgans. Oh, and that's also why 50-60% of these guys were blond and had light eyes.

    Enough with the bullshit, I say. No one will gain anything from it, and eventually we'll see full genome sequences of the Andronovo mummies, which will humiliate all the bullshit propagators out there. Actually, I'll be naming some names on my blog, specifically of some of those boneheads from DNA-forums that I had to deal with.
    Last edited by Polako; 2011-09-26 at 11:16.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    No, it doesn't mean blond, blue eyes Northern Euros are Aryans. And yes, the French dude is an idiot.



    For some reason, these efforts to try and document ancient population movements and ancestral connections are always turned into accusations that this or that modern group wants to claim glory via links to this or that ancient group.

    It really doesn't matter whether Slavs can be termed the next best thing to the ancient Andronovo groups, or not. What matters is that the close relationship between modern Slavs and these ancient tribes shows us where they came from, how they expanded, and thus how modern groups are related to each other via that expansion.

    The picture is very clear now. All the bullshit about Eastern Europe being overrun by Indians, Central Asians or North Caucasians is just that, pure bullshit. I wouldn't mind it if it were true, but as it is, it's pure bullshit, and so I fail to see the reason why some people continue with it.

    Truth is, the expansion took place from Central-Eastern Europe. That's why there are no Asian Z93+ lineages in Europe. And that's why mtDNA lineages derived from those found in Neolithic Ukrainians are seen in Andronovo kurgans. Oh, and that's also why 50-60% of these guys were blond and had light eyes.

    Enough with the bullshit, I say. No one will gain anything from it, and eventually we'll see full genome sequences of the Andronovo mummies, which will humiliate all the bullshit propagators out there. Actually, I'll be naming some names on my blog, specifically of some of those boneheads from DNA-forums that I had to deal with.
    This is very much in line with the linguistic variation of Indo-European languages:

    1.1 Early proposals

    When the finding of connections between languages from India to Europe led to the creation of Indo-European studies in the late 18th century some Indians and Europeans believed that the Proto-Indo-European language must be Sanskrit, or something very close to it. A few early Indo-Europeanists, such as Enlightenment pioneers Voltaire,[10] Immanuel Kant,[10] and Karl Wilhelm Friedrich Schlegel[11] had a firm belief in this and essentially created the idea that India was the Urheimat of all Indo-European languages. In a 1775 letter, Voltaire expressed his belief in that the "dynasty of the Brahmins" taught the rest of the world: "I am convinced that everything has come down to us from the banks of the Ganges."[10] The idea intrigued Kant who "suggested that mankind together with all science must have originated on the roof of the world [the Himalayas ]."[10] Most scholars, such as William Jones, however realized from earliest times that instead, Sanskrit and related European languages had a common source, and that no attested language represented this direct ancestor.

    The development of historical linguistics, specifically the law of palatals and the discovery of the laryngeals in Hittite, shattered Sanskrit's preeminent status as the most venerable elder in this reconstructed family.[12] The demotion of Sanskrit to the status of one daughter language among many eroded the remaining support of India as the Indo-European homeland.

    The ethnologist and philologist Robert Gordon Latham was the first to state that, according to the principles of natural science, a language family's most likely point of origin is in the area of its greatest diversity which, in the case of Indo-European, is roughly in Central-Eastern Europe, where the Italic, Venetic, Illyrian, Germanic, Baltic, Slavic, Thracian, and Greek branches of the Indo-European language family are attested, as opposed to South Asia, where only the Indo-Aryan branch is.[13] Lachhmi Dhar Kalla responded by arguing that the greater linguistic diversity of Indo-European in Europe is the result of absorbing foreign linguistic elements, and that a language family's point of origin should be sought in the area of least linguistic change, since it has been least affected by substrate interference. Dhar's line of argument has a history in Western debates in the Indo-European homeland (e.g. Feist 1932 and Pissani 1974 as cited in Bryant 2001, pp. 142–143) where it has been used to locate the Indo-European homeland near the area where the Lithuanian[clarification needed] and Anatolian branches of Indo-European are attested.
    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_...arly_proposals

    So yeah, R-M17 is the proto-Indo-European marker. And not to sound “Eurocentric”, but Indo-European is primarily a Europid language family.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2011-09-26 at 10:42. Reason: clarify
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries



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    ^^ So, I've been thinking about this lately. Based on the high linguistic variation of Indo-European languages in Central-Eastern Europe, per the Wikipedia article, and Polako's statement that the expansion of R-M17 took place from Central-Eastern Europe (based on variation in R1a1 subclades, frequency etc.), considering the strong correlation here between Y-DNA R1a1a and Indo-European languages, and what we know from aDNA and David Anthony's intellectual support of the PIE urheimat in the Yamnaya horizon, is it correct to say the proto-Indo-European urheimat is Central-Eastern Europe? Because there's a very strong correlation here between the linguistic variation of Indo-European languages and how they've expanded along the lines of R-M17. All of a sudden, for example, R1a1a shows up in Western China together with the Tocharians:



    An event one can probably best explain by the domestication of the horse, and if the proto-Indo-Europeans did not domesticate the horse, they were at least one of the earliest groups who utilised the horse more than any other group. As far as I'm concerned, this pretty much settles the "Indo-European enigma".

    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    For some reason, these efforts to try and document ancient population movements and ancestral connections are always turned into accusations that this or that modern group wants to claim glory via links to this or that ancient group.
    Related topics:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_myth
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histori...nd_nationalism

    However, I don't think this can be categorised as a national myth any longer considering the genotypes of aDNA from West Eurasia showing strong correlation with Eastern Europe.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2011-11-18 at 12:31. Reason: clarify
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries



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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    All of a sudden, for example, R1a1a shows up in Western China together with the Tocharians:
    But Tocharians were Kentum and used Hallstatt-Celtic Tartans, they are the lost, famous Steppe Celts!!!


    Their costumes, and especially textiles, may indicate a common origin with Indo-European neolithic clothing techniques or a common low-level textile technology. Chärchän man wore a red twill tunic and tartan leggings. Textile expert Elizabeth Wayland Barber, who examined the tartan-style cloth, discusses similarities between it and fragments recovered from salt mines associated with the Hallstatt culture.
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    is it correct to say the proto-Indo-European urheimat is Central-Eastern Europe.
    Yes, in my opinion it is correct. Central-Eastern Europe is the most likely PIE urheimat.
    I also think that and PIE urheimat = Slavonic urheimat.
    But to see that we have to look at the whole picture and not at some pseudoscientific ‘reconstructions’ of proto-language. I agree with Polako’s opinion and with what Dhira Simha wrote about it:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhira Simha View Post
    We may get some clues from archaeology, history, mythology, art, traditions and such modern sciences as genetics. It is this combined approach with unbiased attitude to linguistic facts which can provide some answers
    We have various treads on PIE language, genetics, anthropology, archeology etc. I would like to gather here all those findings that point to Central-Eastern Europe as the most likely PIE urheimat.

    Polako is the best expert on genetics on this forum, so I live genetics to him. Here is his recent interesting blog entry with useful links:

    http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2011...g-special.html


    I would like to present some evidence that comes from archeology and linguistics.
    In the tread “Where was wheeled transport invented?” we have been searching for the place where wheeled transport originated and have come to the conclusion that it was in Central Europe, most likely in southern and central Poland:

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...64&postcount=4

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...1&postcount=30

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...3&postcount=36

    It was shown there that advanced wheeled transport with fixed axles and revolving wheels originated in Central Europe, most likely in Poland and its spread should be linked with the expansion of Globular Amphora or Corded Ware cultures, which I think were Proto-Slavonic. From Poland it was also spread to the steppe and further east.


    The most archaic, conservative and complete vocabulary related to wheel and wagon has been preserved in Slavonic languages. All the PIE roots ‘kol-/koł, ‘rot-/rat-’-“wheel”, ‘voz-/vah-/vag-‘-“wagon, vehicle”, ‘oś-‘, ‘ośka’-“axle”, ‘dysz-/dusz-‘ “thill” etc. are present in Slavonic vocabularies and there is no doubt that these are Slavonic words as they belong to the core vocabulary and are related to numerous nouns, verbs and adjectives. People who invented wheel and distributed it also supplied the vocabulary for it. There is no doubt that they were Slavonic speaking. When those words were borrowed by other languages they became distorted and changed and can be shown to be related only by reconstruction.

    It also remains to be explained why David Anthony and J.P. Mallory are evidently lying about it in their books.


    Reading Elena E. Kuzmina’s book “The Origin of the Indo-Iranians” I noticed that similar story applies to the settlements and domestic architecture i.e. we have here Central European origin and Slavonic vocabulary again.

    Describing Andronovo settlements and house types Kuzmina noticed that their origins are traced back to Central Europe and LBK cultures:
    At the same time Andronovo unity according to settlement and house type should be viewed as a part of a larger Eurasian unity, stretching from central Europe to western Siberia. Settlements and houses of the various cultures of the Eurasian steppe and forest-steppe in the Bronze Age display uniform social functions, architecture, planning decisions and building techniques. It reflects in the first place a similarity of the economic level of development, and in the second place, a unity of house building traditions stemming from the Neolithic. Their origins are traced back to the early farming cultures of Europe, the Linearbandkeramik, which was concentrated in Central Europe from Hungary to Germany. (page 48)
    We know that LBK were Neolithic farmers with dominant hg. G. That culture disappeared due to climatic changes and in its place later Globular Amphora and Corded Ware Cultures were born and that most likely Corded Ware cultures spread east from Poland to Andronovo that housing style and Slavonic vocabulary , which is well preserved in Vedic Sanskrit.

    Kuzmina strongly emphasizes difference between Central and Eastern European and Near Eastern housing styles refuting PIE out of Anatolia hypothesis:

    Difference between the two traditions is observable in all cultural traits. There is no Near Eastern influence on the traditions of house building in the Eurasian steppes during the 3rd to 1st millennia BC. This observation is significant when considering the hypothesis advanced by V. V. Ivanov and T. V. Gamkrelidze about the mass migration of the ancestors of Indo-Europeans from the Near East through the Central Asian deserts into Eastern Europe. The evidence of domestic architecture does not support this hypothesis nor those of J. Nichols (1997) and V. Sarianidi (1998).(page 49)
    PIE out of Anatolia hypothesis have been also refuted by various linguistic and genetic studies. Recently Polako wrote about it on his blog:

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2011/1...inst-indo.html

    Kuzmina stresses unity of settlement and house types from Central Europe to western Siberia:

    The Andronovo house is comparable with houses of other cultures of the Eurasian Final Bronze Age over the vast territory of the steppe and forest steppe, from central Europe to western Siberia. The construction technique and planning decisions are universal over this whole zone. Those peculiarities that characterize individual archaeological cultures are seen only in terms of some secondary details. In the west, in central Europe we find post-built houses with a roof with two sloping surfaces, more rarely with four, erected as surface dwellings and smaller than Andronovo houses.


    Along the Danube the Middle Bronze Age log houses combine the use of wattling with daub as in the Eurasian steppes. The same peculiarity is traced in the Trzciniec culture in Poland and in the Ukraine. A semi-subterranian house with post-frame construction is typical of the Multi-roller Ware culture. Similar also is the house type of the Abashevo culture from the Urals to the Don and Pre-Kazan’ culture on the Volga. To the southeast of Andronovo territoryare the similar houses of the Tazabagyab culture of the Aral region These derive from the migration of Timber-grave and Andronovo populations.


    We can see then that the steppes and forest-steppes of Eurasia constitute a single zone according to settlement and house type of the cultures dating from the 17th to 9th centuries BC.
    (page 46-47)
    Spread of similar culture from Poland to Siberia agrees with genetic findings which show that in Bronze Age in Western Siberia population was similar to Poles and Russians. Again Polako wrote about it on his blog:

    http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2009...ient-indo.html

    Kuzmina also noticed that similar hosing style was present among Scythian and Sarmatian tribes:

    A direct continuation of the building traditions of the Timber-grave/Andronovo cultures can be seen in the culture of the Iranian nomads such as the Saka, Sarmatians, and Scythians, the likely descendents of the Bronze Age pastoral tribes in the Eurasian steppes. (page 50)
    I would like to point out here that Kuzmina didn’t demonstrate that Sarmatians and Scythians were Iranians, she only showed that there was an archeological link between Andronovo and Iran and India. That custom of calling Scythians and Sarmatians Iranians probably comes from old believes that Iranian speaking Ossetians were descendents of Scythians. Now we know that it is not true. Ossetians came from Iran and not from steppe.

    Presence of east Euroasian types of houses in India Kozmina considers as an evidence of migrations from the north:

    As the house type of northern and central Indian coexists everywhere with the Near Eastern type house and because it is built in different geographical zones, its specific character is probably preconditioned not by ecological factors but by the domestic architectural traditions alien to the creators of the Harappan culture and brought from the outside. The isolated nature of the northern and central Indian house type in South and Southwest Asia and the presence of its analogues and prototypes in the pastoral cultures of the Eurasian steppes lead us to conclude that such a house type was brought to India by groups of Aryas who migrated from their homeland. The distribution of houses belonging to the central Eurasian type within India suggests two waves of Aryan migrations into India from the northwest: rough the north-west regions of the country, and 2) along the Gangetic plain. An important proof of this hypothesis is the fact that the houses of north and central Indian type are connected with quite specific ethnic and social circles. They are built by representatives of the higher castes, sects and ethnic groups within which the institute of a large patriarchal family is preserved: rajputs, gujars, kankan brahmans, djats, etc. The majority of scholars accept that these groups are ethnically and genetically connected with the arrival of the Vedic Aryas in India or with later waves of Central Asian tribes related to the Aryas. (page 55)

    What I find fascinating is the fact that vocabulary used in Sanskrit for houses, communities, social organization are very close to Slavonic.

    This house type is called by common Indo-European term: Slavonic domъ, Sanskrit dam-, Avestan d_m_na-, Latin domus. (page 56)

    Not less than 15 houses/families made up a vīs-, a clan and the settlement of the clan […] and the word vīs has correspondences in Slavonic vьsь, a village with its areas of economic significance. (page 60)
    In this respect W. Rau’s interpretation (1983: 11) of the Sanskrit term grāma is of major importance: later it denoted village, but initially it denoted a small tribal group of shepherds migrating in wagons. Wagons were put in a circle every evening, forming a peculiar fortress on wheels, with the cattle inside (Elizarenkova and Toporov 1995: 490). (page34)

    Sk. ‘grāma’ – ”an inhabited place , village , hamlet, the collective inhabitants of a place , community , race, any number of men associated together , multitude , troop, a multitude , class , collection or number, inhabitants , people
    Sk. ‘grāma-tā’ – “a multitude of villages”
    http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koel...hakakRkara.jpg

    Sk. ‘grāma-tā’ – “a multitude of villages” correspond directly to Polish ‘gromada’

    Pol. ‘groma-da’ –“group, bunch, community, flock, gathering, drove, district, herd, team, phylum”

    http://translate.google.pl/?hl=pl&tab=wT#pl|en|gromada

    That term as a grup of villages is still used as an administrative term:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gromada

    In Russian there is a similar word:
    Rus. ‘грома-да’(gramada) – mass of something, and village gathering – ‘громадский (сельский) совет.’



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    It's Northern Europe IMO



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    It's more Northeastern Euro and R1a-Z283 IMO:

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2011/1...f-r1a-and.html



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    EastPole, I don't have time right now to answer your entire post, but this part I have something for you to debate :

    Quote Originally Posted by EastPole View Post
    I also think that and PIE urheimat = Slavonic urheimat.


    ^^ Proto-Balto-Slavic urheimat is very close to the proto-Indo-European urheimat, but not quite at the centre of it.

    The site in itself is interesting:

    http://www.buildinghistory.org/dista...uropeans.shtml

    Quote Originally Posted by safinator View Post
    It's Northern Europe IMO
    Based on the accumulated knowledge in linguistics, modern advanced population genetics, archaeology and the earliest evidence of horse domestication, northern Europe is extremely unlikely.

    Sorry, but Gustaf Kossinna's Germanic nationalist pseudo-theory is more or less entirely refuted.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2012-01-08 at 16:13. Reason: clarify
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    “A wise man makes his own decisions; an ignorant man follows public opinion.” ― Chinese proverb

    “Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.” ― H. L. Mencken

    “The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.” ― Socrates

    “Damnant quod non intelligunt.” ― Latin proverb

    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries



  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to EliasAlucard For This Useful Post:

    Pioterus (2011-11-23), Unome (2011-11-23)

  16. #9
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    Turboslavic Caveman Pioterus's Avatar
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    ^ Good question, though I am afraid instead of being answered you could be linked to some old quarrel between some Poles and Jean M that took place on DNA Forums in the past. Jean M is incurable...
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski
    Świat się zmienia, słońce zachodzi, a wódka się kończy [The world is changing, sun is setting and we're running out of Vodka.]
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski



  17. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pioterus View Post
    ^ Good question
    I didn't ask any question?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pioterus View Post
    though I am afraid instead of being answered you could be linked to some old quarrel between some Poles and Jean M that took place on DNA Forums in the past. Jean M is incurable...
    I have no idea who Jean M is and what his stance is. I don't think he's important anyway.

    Anyway, something I've been thinking about lately is the importance of the cow in Indo-European mythology:

    “Proto-Indo-European mythology was, at its core, the worldview of a male-centered, cattle-raising people—not necessarily cattle nomads but certainly people who held sons and cattle in the highest esteem. Why were cattle (and sons) so important?”
    — Anthony, David W., The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World, ISBN: 069114818X, p. 135

    The cow is sacred in Hinduism and Celtic paganism, and also has a high status in Asatro:

    The cow appears frequently in Celtic mythology as a provider of nourishment for entire communities, like the magic cows of Manannan, one speckled, one dun, with twisted horns, who were always in milk.
    http://www.isle-of-skye.org.uk/celti...a/celt_c5c.htm

    See also:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ymir.jpg
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Au%C3%B0umbla
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle#Hindu_tradition

    Cattle bones have been found frequently in archaeological sites in the Yamnaya horizon (various percentage rates, Anthony provides statistics in The Horse, the Wheel and Language if anyone is interested). Basically, the proto-Indo-Europeans had an animal husbandry relationship with the cow; they lived in symbiosis with the cow.

    So why is the cow important to understand the origin of the proto-Indo-Europeans? Well, because the Romans described the Celtic and Germanic tribes as tall giants with light hair, blue eyes etc., which seems to me the Germanic and Celtic tribes had newly arrived in regions above Roman territory straight out of the Indo-European homeland, whereas the Romans (and Greeks for that matter) had settled down in the Mediterranean and adapted themselves to a sedentary lifestyle whereas the Celts still had their holy cows. It is known milk contributes to improving height (protein of high biological value, calcium etc.), and Romans reduced the level of protein and other nutrition (thanks to Aino for the link):

    Cows are key to 2,500 years of human progress: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...social-history

    So, that's why the Romans weren't as tall as the Celts, because they had adapted themselves to the traditional Mediterranean lifestyle, or they were simply Indo-European descendants who were mixed with indigenous Mediterraneans. In any case, the cow is important to understand how it altered and contributed to the evolution of the proto-Indo-Europeans (huge Brad Pitt-like jaws etc. perhaps can be explained by cow milk diet?).

    Michael H. Hart (Jew) in his Understanding Human History argues for Indo-European supremacy over the old sedentary civilisations of the Middle East, which he attributes to higher IQ. But I don't think higher IQ is a necessity to explain the situation. It's more about the entirely different lifestyle of the proto-Indo-Europeans: domestication of the horse, which gave the proto-Indo-Europeans a major advantage in roaming the globe (and facilitated the spread of their language, as opposed to the sedentary lifestyle of the Fertile Crescent civilisations and Indus Valley civilisation), animal husbandry with the cow, which contributed to increased height in the men especially, and a nomadic lifestyle which meant that the proto-Indo-Europeans were rarely attacked in home base by for example Assyrians or Hebrews, but they were constantly expanding and immigrating from right to left from the proto-Indo-European homeland.

    In any case, the cow is perhaps one of the most important markers to search after the original Indo-Europeans; David Anthony, J.P. Mallory and other Indo-Europeanists haven't given the cow enough attention in my opinion, it's perhaps just as important as the horse in understanding the origin of the Indo-Europeans.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2011-11-26 at 02:00. Reason: clarify
    ReactOS <--- support this project so that we can get rid of Windows!
    Ubuntu MATE 16.04.1 LTS | PRISM-Break! | Windows7sins

    “A wise man makes his own decisions; an ignorant man follows public opinion.” ― Chinese proverb

    “Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.” ― H. L. Mencken

    “The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.” ― Socrates

    “Damnant quod non intelligunt.” ― Latin proverb

    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries



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