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Thread: Y-DNA in Near East Minority Groups2214 days old

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    Default Y-DNA in Near East Minority Groups

    Instead of creating a new thread for each haplogroup, I will post all maps in this thread.

    R1b
    Adding minority populations: Bakhtiari, N Talysh, S Talysh, Mazandarani, and Gilaki. Credit to Humata, for the frequencies and previous analysis of the Roewer et al. data.

    New frequencies in red.

    Code:
    Pop    N    R1b    Language        Source
    Druze__    643    17%    Semitic    Arabic    Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al., Shlush et al.
    PlChris    44    2%    Semitic    Arabic    Fernandes et al.
    Alawi    104    33%    Semitic    Arabic    Donbak et al.
    Assyr    79    24%    Semitic    Aramaic    FTDNA, 23andMe
    IraqJ    79    4%    Semitic    Hebrew    Behar et al.
    IranJ    49    2%    Semitic    Hebrew    Behar et al.
    Armen    413    29%    Indo-European    Armenian    Hererra et al.
    NiqJ    99    13%    Semitic    Hebrew/Aramaic    Nebel et al.
    GrkOrt    59    14%    Semitic    Arabic    Haber et al.
    Maron    196    8%    Semitic    Arabic/Aramaic    Haber et al.
    YemeJ    74    5%    Semitic    Hebrew/Arabic    Behar et al.
    Bakht    46    7%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Luri    Roewer et al.
    S_Tlsh    18    44%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.
    Gilak    43    23%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Gilaki    Roewer et al.
    Mazan    46    15%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Mazandarani    Roewer et al.
    N_Tlsh    43    19%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.


    ------------------------------------------
    R1a

    New frequencies in blue.

    Code:
    Pop    N    R1a    Language        Source
    Druze    366    1%    Semitic    Arabic    Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al.
    PalCh    44    2%    Semitic    Arabic    Fernandes at al.*
    Alawi    104    2%    Semitic    Arabic    Donbak et al.*
    Assyr    106    2%    Semitic    Aramaic    Yepiskoposian et al.
    IraqJ    79    0%    Semitic    Hebrew    Behar et al.
    IranJ    49    4%    Semitic    Hebrew    Behar et al.
    Arme    1147    4%    Indo-European    Armenian    Hererra et al., Weale et al.
    NiqJ    99    4%    Semitic    Hebrew/Aramaic    Nebel et al.
    Yezidi    196    2%    Indo-Iranian(IE)    Kurmanji    Yepiskoposian et al.
    Maron    196    0%    Semitic    Arabic/Aramaic    Haber et al.
    YemJ    74    3%    Semitic    Hebrew/Arabic    Behar et al.
    Bakht    46    15%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Luri    Roewer et al.
    S_Tlsh    18    6%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.
    Gilak    43    14%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Gilaki    Roewer et al.
    Mazan    46    7%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Mazandarani    Roewer et al.
    N_Tlsh    43    0%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    T and J1

    I have marked Sason, Turkey with a "X." Or, at least nearby. Sason is where Herrera et al. recently reported a significant frequency of Armenians with Y-DNA haplogroup T. I have separated the populations according to where T ~ J1, and where T ≪ J1 (i.e. Leb and Syr coast).

    Code:
    Pop      N    T    Language        Source
    Druze__    790    8%    Semitic    Arabic    Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al., Shlush et al., Flores et al., Mendez et al.
    PlChris    44    7%    Semitic    Arabic    Fernandes et al.
    Alawi    104    1%    Semitic    Arabic    Donbak et al.**
    Assyr    137    15%    Semitic    Aramaic    Yepiskoposian et al.*, Mendez et al.
    IraqJ    111    14%    Semitic    Hebrew    Behar et al., Mendez et al.
    IranJ    71    11%    Semitic    Hebrew    Behar et al., Mendez et al.
    Armen    1147    6%    Indo-European    Armenian    Hererra et al., Weale et al.
    NiqJ    149    19%    Semitic    Hebrew/Aramaic    Nebel et al.*, Mendez et al.
    GrkOrt    59    0%    Semitic    Arabic    Haber et al.
    Maron    196    5%    Semitic    Arabic/Aramaic    Haber et al.
    YemeJ    118    4%    Semitic    Hebrew/Arabic    Behar et al., Mendez et al.
    Yezidi    196    6%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Kurmanji    Yepiskoposian et al.*
    Bakht    46    13%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Luri    Roewer et al.
    Red frequencies = J1* > J1c3
    Blue frequencies = J1c3 > J1*
    Black frequencies = breakdown unknown

    * hg26 K*(xK1,LN,O2b,O3c,P) treated as hg T.
    ** Frequencies based on Athey's "Predictor" (Batch option).


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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    Instead of creating a new thread for each haplogroup, I will post all maps in this thread.
    I do not understand why you keep excluding Kurds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palisto View Post
    I do not understand why you keep excluding Kurds.
    I don't think a regional population of 25 million is considered a minority, but that's just what I think.
    Y-DNA Ancestors
    Paternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> R2a*
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> J1*
    Maternal Grandmother's Y-DNA --> J2a4b*

    mtDNA Ancestors
    Maternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> T1*
    Paternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> H*

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    Quote Originally Posted by birko19 View Post
    I don't think a regional population of 25 million is considered a minority, but that's just what I think.
    Is this though not a bit too easy? Kurds are a minority in multiple Near East countries.
    Isn't exclusion of Kurds (in these maps) who are living right between Assyrians, Armenians, Iraqi and Iranian Jews completely misleading?
    He is not mentioning the Zaza Kurds (Nasidze et al.), not the Iraqi Kurds (Nebel et al.), not the Kurmanji Kurds of Turkey (Nasidze et al.). For example, all of these Kurdish minorities have more than 11% R1a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palisto View Post
    Is this though not a bit too easy? Kurds are a minority in multiple Near East countries.
    Isn't exclusion of Kurds (in these maps) who are living right between Assyrians, Armenians, Iraqi and Iranian Jews completely misleading?
    He is not mentioning the Zaza Kurds (Nasidze et al.), not the Iraqi Kurds (Nebel et al.), not the Kurmanji Kurds of Turkey (Nasidze et al.). For example, all of these Kurdish minorities have more than 11% R1a.
    Even when you divide the Kurds in multiple countries, they're not really that much of a minority (With the exception of Syria and Lebanon perhaps). I personally don't buy into the whole border separation crap, Kurdistan should have been made after the first world war (Along with Assyria) and there's no reason to separate Kurds today just because they live in different countries.
    Y-DNA Ancestors
    Paternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> R2a*
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> J1*
    Maternal Grandmother's Y-DNA --> J2a4b*

    mtDNA Ancestors
    Maternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> T1*
    Paternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> H*

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    Quote Originally Posted by birko19 View Post
    Even when you divide the Kurds in multiple countries, they're not really that much of a minority (With the exception of Syria and Lebanon perhaps). I personally don't buy into the whole border separation crap, Kurdistan should have been made after the first world war (Along with Assyria) and there's no reason to separate Kurds today just because they live in different countries.
    So, you are basically arguing that Kurds are no minority in the Near/Middle East, so they can be ignored here. What is the value of genetic Near East maps excluding Kurds, Arabs, Persians, and Turks? Does Humanist think that the minorities are the ancient people of the Near East and the majority are ancient people+immigrants from elsewhere?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palisto View Post
    So, you are basically arguing that Kurds are no minority in the Near/Middle East, so they can be ignored here.
    I'm saying that the Kurds are not a minority because they have 25 million at least in the region. Countries in those regions may call them a minority but in reality this is false advertisement to belittle them and argue against an independent Kurdish state.

    Behind Arabs, Turks, and Persians, the Kurds are possibly the fourth biggest group, either them or the Azeris, but both are similar in numbers.

    What is the value of genetic Near East maps excluding Kurds, Arabs, Persians, and Turks? Does Humanist think that the minorities are the ancient people of the Near East and the majority are ancient people+immigrants from elsewhere?
    I don't think Humanist said anything about that. Having said that, minorities tend to mix less with outsiders due to their small numbers, limited owned lands, and possibly religious differences.
    Y-DNA Ancestors
    Paternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> R2a*
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> J1*
    Maternal Grandmother's Y-DNA --> J2a4b*

    mtDNA Ancestors
    Maternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> T1*
    Paternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> H*

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    (To Palisto) Yes, in Middle Eastern history majorities absorbed outside influence while minorities were left largely isolated, especially due to dhimmitude and later millet laws in recent times. There's nothing wrong with assessing minority populations in the middle east or even focusing on them to the exclusion of majority ones, it never seemed to me that Humanist had an agenda other than his own natural interest in his group. I don't know how isolated Kurds have been in the last two millenia and I don't know much about Kurds but I'm sure humanist has a reason for not including them, it's unnecessary to be antagonistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palisto View Post
    I do not understand why you keep excluding Kurds.
    If you wish for me to place Kurds on the map, even though I do not consider them a minority, I will oblige. However, I will take the average position between where Dr. McDonald placed them, where DNA Tribes placed them, and where Polako placed them. If you wish for me to limit it to Iraqi Kurdish Y-DNA, that is fine. I will exclude all non Iraqi Kurds from Dr. McDonald's map, when determining the average position between the McDonald spot, the DNA Tribes spot, and the Polako spot. Polako used the Yunusbayev Kurds, sampled in Kazakhstan, I believe. But, they appear to be very similar to Iraqi Kurds in Dodecad. If you wish for me to exclude Polako's analysis, for whatever reason, that will also be fine, and I will simply use the Dr. McDonald spot, and the DNA Tribes spot.
    DNA Tribes' Kurdish spot, attached. Dr. McDonald's spots on the map, attached (Kurds in green). Polako's plot, attached (original included).









    ---------- Post added 2011-11-25 at 02:02 ----------

    To give an idea where the Kurds would fall. Using Nebel et al's data on Iraqi Kurds as an example. Kurds in purple (12%).


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    Quote Originally Posted by timmay View Post
    (To Palisto) Yes, in Middle Eastern history majorities absorbed outside influence while minorities were left largely isolated, especially due to dhimmitude and later millet laws in recent times.
    There is no reason to assume that minorities like Jews, Assyrians or Armenians are less mixed than let's say Kurds. All Christian minorities are mixed with each other and others. All Jewish minorities are mixed with each other and others. These are big melting pots.

    I have Jewish, Armenian, Zoroastrian and Assyrian distant cousins, that does not necessarily mean that I have Jewish, Armenian, Zoroastrian and Assyrian ancestry. Instead, these Jewish, Armenian, Zoroastrian and Assyrian people could be all partly Kurdish.

    Quote Originally Posted by timmay View Post
    There's nothing wrong with assessing minority populations in the middle east or even focusing on them to the exclusion of majority ones, it never seemed to me that Humanist had an agenda other than his own natural interest in his group.
    Of course, I don't see a problem when he is focusing on Assyrians. But it is kinda odd to mention 20 minorities from the Near East and to exclude e.g. Iraqi Kurds who are at least as isolated as Assyrians from foreign influences and who are the closest neighbors of the Assyrians. It's like talking about the Sorbs and excluding the Saxons. The only reason why he added the Yezidis in his list is because he thinks Yezidis are not Kurdish.

    Quote Originally Posted by timmay View Post
    I don't know how isolated Kurds have been in the last two millenia and I don't know much about Kurds but I'm sure humanist has a reason for not including them, it's unnecessary to be antagonistic.
    It is very necessary to be antagonistic if a whole genetic discussion about Near East minorities starts with exclusion of one of the most ancient (and still existing) minorities from the Near East.

    ---------- Post added 2011-11-25 at 00:55 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    If you wish for me to place Kurds on the map, even though I do not consider them a minority, I will oblige. However, I will take the average position between where Dr. McDonald placed them, where DNA Tribes placed them, and where Polako placed them. If you wish for me to limit it to Iraqi Kurdish Y-DNA, that is fine. I will exclude all non Iraqi Kurds from Dr. McDonald's map, when determining the average position between the McDonald spot, the DNA Tribes spot, and the Polako spot. Polako used the Yunusbayev Kurds, sampled in Kazakhstan, I believe. But, they appear to be very similar to Iraqi Kurds in Dodecad. If you wish for me to exclude Polako's analysis, for whatever reason, that will also be fine, and I will simply use the Dr. McDonald spot, and the DNA Tribes spot.
    DNA Tribes' Kurdish spot, attached. Dr. McDonald's spots on the map, attached (Kurds in green). Polako's plot, attached (original included).

    To give an idea where the Kurds would fall. Using Nebel et al's data on Iraqi Kurds as an example. Kurds in purple (12%).
    Humanist, I am asking myself why you want to place Kurds based on genetic calculations and place all the other minorities based on their actual homeland???
    Maybe one day, you will understand that the mapping is based on neighbor reference populations. If Kurds are placed in Northwestern Iran, then this means that Kurds were excluded as reference population and thus appear genetically between Caucasus people and Persians, it does not mean that they actually live (or lived) between the Caucasus and Tehran.
    Last edited by Palisto; 2011-11-25 at 10:05.

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