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Thread: Germanic Urheimat: Jastorf, Nordic Bronze Age, other?2820 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by HinGambleGoth View Post
    There is, as stated earlier, a boatload of Pre-Germanic loanwords in Baltic Finnish, and not in other areas, suggesting that Germanic developed in the Baltic sea.
    That's very much in line with R1a-Z284+ being closely related to Balto-Slavic R1a-Z280+ and R1a-M458+, both of which are predominant amongst Poles and Balts:



    But that begs the question then, is Z284+ the actual proto-Germanic marker, or is it only the proto-Norse marker? If Z284+ is the proto-Germanic marker, then it should be safe to conclude that R1a-L664+ which is common in Germany, was originally carried by non-Germanic speakers (proto-Celts?) who were early on, Germanicised by Swedish Z284+ males who migrated to Denmark and then Germany. Either way, R1a-Z284+ is the marker that introduced Germanic languages into Scandinavia, and without it, there wouldn't have been any Viking culture either (although the Vikings had pretty much the same distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups as modern Nordic countries have today, Finland included, since Rurik was N1c).

    But how can we be sure that eastern (south-eastern?) Sweden is the proto-Germanic urheimat, just because there are old Germanic loanwords in Finnish? That if anything, could be evidence for Finland being the Germanic urheimat. I think linguistic palaeontology should be employed on the Germanic languages, for corroboration.

    Quote Originally Posted by HinGambleGoth View Post
    I would date the intrusion of IE in Scandinavia to the bronze age, that Culture is pretty much the IE stereotype, but there were older Neolithic cultures there before, with more southern roots.
    I'm also of the opinion that the Viking culture was very much an IE stereotype: high illiteracy still (although runic futhark was around, it was hardly mainstream) drinking mead and cow milk, horse sacrifice ritual (see Ashvameda and Blot-Sweyn's horse sacrifice) and R1a-Z284+ Scandinavians going berserk throughout Europe.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2014-07-06 at 09:12. Reason: R1a chart
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    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard
    But how can we be sure that eastern (south-eastern?) Sweden is the proto-Germanic urheimat, just because there are old Germanic loanwords in Finnish? That if anything, could be evidence for Finland being the Germanic urheimat. I think linguistic palaeontology should be employed on the Germanic languages, for corroboration.
    Your open-minded suggestion seems quite valid at the moment, if we take a look at the linguistic evidence:

    1. Lots of Germanic loanwords not only in Finnish but in Saami, too, including layers like: Northwest Indo-European, Pre-Germanic, Palaeo-Germanic, Proto-Germanic, Northwest-Germanic, Proto-Nordic...
    2. Only few loanwords between Germanic and Baltic (or Slavic), and none preceding the proper Proto-Germanic level of reconstruction (although older loanwords would be more difficult to distinguish from the real inherited cognates).
    3. Proto-Finnic and Proto-Saami are found in the Southwestern Finland at the Proto-Germanic era, around 500 BC (since which we also have retained Germanic placenames in Finland); before that Finnic was spoken in the southern side of Gulf of Finland, and Saami somewhere in Karelia. Saami does not spread to Lapland before the Christian Era, and Finnish still a millennium later.

    Indeed, we have a solid basis to argue that the Germanic homeland was in Southwestern Finland (maybe already since the Corded Ware Culture).

    One counter-argument:
    Few proposed Celtic loanwords in Germanic supposedly precede the Grimm's Law, thus representing southwestern contacts already during the Palaeo-Germanic times (~1000-500 BC).
    Y-DNA: N1c1 (Savonian)
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    I'd say Indo-Europeanization of southern Scandinavian begins with the advent of the CWC in the region. But we are only dealing with pre-proto-Germanic at that point or a late dialectal version of PIE that is Kentum-like. Proto-Germanic probably doesn't crystalize until c. 1500 BC during the Northern/Nordic Bronze age.

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    My suggestion has been that Corded Ware people who came to Finland spoke IE and original people in Finland, not being Uralic speakers, adapted the IE language from CW people, but didn't completely, keeping some linguistic features from their original language. In some point weather conditions became harsher in Finland and people moved to Southern Scandinavia where they refined lately Germanic languages with its linguistic laws. So I1 and R1a men together are responsible for German languages.
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    Three simple facts about Finns:
    1. Baltic Finnic languages (including Finnish) never came from the Volga basin along with ancestors of present-day Finns.
    2. Finnish I1 (around 30% of all Finns) has Germanic roots from the late Bronze Age or the early Iron Age.
    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

    Väinämöinen - R1a
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    Quote Originally Posted by geomattica View Post
    I'd say Indo-Europeanization of southern Scandinavian begins with the advent of the CWC in the region. But we are only dealing with pre-proto-Germanic at that point or a late dialectal version of PIE that is Kentum-like. Proto-Germanic probably doesn't crystalize until c. 1500 BC during the Northern/Nordic Bronze age.
    I can fully agree. There is a recent article on the subject by Petri Kallio, The Prehistoric Germanic Loanword Strata in Finnic, unfortunately not available electronically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen
    My suggestion has been that Corded Ware people who came to Finland spoke IE and original people in Finland, not being Uralic speakers, adapted the IE language from CW people, but didn't completely, keeping some linguistic features from their original language. In some point weather conditions became harsher in Finland and people moved to Southern Scandinavia where they refined lately Germanic languages with its linguistic laws. So I1 and R1a men together are responsible for German languages.
    This sounds possible, too. But do we have any genetic evidence, e.g. paternal lineages which have spread from Finland to Scandinavia?
    Y-DNA: N1c1 (Savonian)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    is unds ossible, too. But do we have any genetic evidence, e.g. paternal lineages which have spread from Finland to Scandinavia?
    .

    No, we have not, but in general tracking the I1-L22 lines to the Bronze Age is very difficult because the clade ages are around 2000-3500 years old. We have not enough continuity to see where they split. Another problem is that all clades defined by SNPs were very small and many died out, only a few survived to our days.
    Blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/, with essence "Believe me, or I'll nuke you".

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    Three simple facts about Finns:
    1. Baltic Finnic languages (including Finnish) never came from the Volga basin along with ancestors of present-day Finns.
    2. Finnish I1 (around 30% of all Finns) has Germanic roots from the late Bronze Age or the early Iron Age.
    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen View Post
    .

    No, we have not, but in general tracking the I1-L22 lines to the Bronze Age is very difficult because the clade ages are around 2000-3500 years old. We have not enough continuity to see where they split. Another problem is that all clades defined by SNPs were very small and many died out, only a few survived to our days.
    OK. So, even though we don't have supporting evidence, we don't have anything which would disagree, either?
    Y-DNA: N1c1 (Savonian)
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    This is a recent, and very interesting paper on early Germanic Uralic contacts.
    https://helda.helsinki.fi/handle/10138/135714
    sadly I could only find it in Swedish.

    My dissertation shows that Proto-Germanic, Proto-Scandinavian, Proto-Finnic and Proto-Sami all date to different periods of the Iron Age. I argue that the present study along with my earlier published research also proves that a (West-)Uralic language – the pre-form of the Finnic and Samic languages – was spoken in the region of the present-day Finland in the Bronze Age, but not earlier than that. In the centuries before the Common Era, Proto-Sami was spoken in the whole region of what is now called Finland, excluding Lapland. At the beginning of the Common Era, Proto-Sami was spoken in the whole region of Finland, including Southern Finland, from where the Sami idiom first began to recede. An archaic (Northwest-)Indo-European language and a subsequently extinct Paleo-European language were likely spoken in what is now called Finland and Estonia, when the linguistic ancestors of the Finns and the Sami arrived in the eastern and northern Baltic Sea region from the Volga-Kama region probably at the beginning of the Bronze Age. For example, the names Suomi ʻFinlandʼ and Viro ʻEstoniaʼ are likely to have been borrowed from the Indo-European idiom in question. (Proto-)Germanic waves of influence have come from Scandinavia to Finland since the Bronze Age. A considerable part of the Finnic and Samic vocabulary is indeed Germanic loanwords of different ages which form strata in these languages. Besides mere etymological research, these numerous Germanic loanwords make it possible to relate to each other the temporal development of the language-forms that have been in contact with each other. That is what I have done in my extensive dissertation, which attempts to be both a detailed and a holistic treatise.
    There is a rough timeline of sound shifts in there.

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    But how can we be sure that eastern (south-eastern?) Sweden is the proto-Germanic urheimat, just because there are old Germanic loanwords in Finnish? That if anything, could be evidence for Finland being the Germanic urheimat. I think linguistic palaeontology should be employed on the Germanic languages, for corroboration. .
    He actually proposes central Sweden as a probable "urheimat", actually, iron working began there earlier than in Germany, and it is right smack in the middle of the Baltic, maybe late bronze age Scandinavia wasn't as peripheral then?

    So maybe those wacky 17th century nationalists were right Flashback would love this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    Indeed, we have a solid basis to argue that the Germanic homeland was in Southwestern Finland (maybe already since the Corded Ware Culture).
    Plot twist, the Finns were swedes all along.

    I just had a crazy idea, what if German/dutch glottal stop before vowels, and Danish ones after long vowels are "echoes" of lost laryngeals? in the old Germanic all vowels alliterated with each other initially, and many southern Scandinavian dialects like scanian have pharyngealized long vowels. Am I the only one that has noticed this? is it that farfetched? Maybe early? Proto-Germanic had this, I don't really see any reason for it to for instance "randomly" appear in late medieval Danish, there is no real motivation to see it as a new feature, even though it got "hooked up to" syllable structure during that time.

    Because it seems like most long IE vowels come from vowel + laryngeal, and most words had to have a consonant or a laryngeal before them.

    It seems like Germanic kept the laryngeals for a very long time, for instance some have stated that the difference between English true and Swedish trygg comes from different treatments of a lost laryngeal.

    Proto-Germanic gets weirder and weirder...
    Last edited by HinGambleGoth; 2014-09-07 at 03:15.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    Your open-minded suggestion seems quite valid at the moment, if we take a look at the linguistic evidence:

    1. Lots of Germanic loanwords not only in Finnish but in Saami, too, including layers like: Northwest Indo-European, Pre-Germanic, Palaeo-Germanic, Proto-Germanic, Northwest-Germanic, Proto-Nordic...
    2. Only few loanwords between Germanic and Baltic (or Slavic), and none preceding the proper Proto-Germanic level of reconstruction (although older loanwords would be more difficult to distinguish from the real inherited cognates).
    3. Proto-Finnic and Proto-Saami are found in the Southwestern Finland at the Proto-Germanic era, around 500 BC (since which we also have retained Germanic placenames in Finland); before that Finnic was spoken in the southern side of Gulf of Finland, and Saami somewhere in Karelia. Saami does not spread to Lapland before the Christian Era, and Finnish still a millennium later.

    Indeed, we have a solid basis to argue that the Germanic homeland was in Southwestern Finland (maybe already since the Corded Ware Culture).

    One counter-argument:
    Few proposed Celtic loanwords in Germanic supposedly precede the Grimm's Law, thus representing southwestern contacts already during the Palaeo-Germanic times (~1000-500 BC).
    I think it should have been something like this:

    1) Proto-Germanic evolved in southern Sweden, and somehow someway, proto-Germanics reached Finland, and began influencing proto-Finns there, to incorporate massive proto-Germanic loanwords, such as, perhaps the most notable Germanic loanword still in use in Finnish, the word for king, kuningas (which comes from proto-Germanic *kuningaz).

    1.1) This indicates a Germanic presence in Finland, far older than the Swedish language and modern Swedes (in the genetic sense).

    1.2) The Corded Ware presence in Finland, might actually have been proto-Germanics, or proto-Balts, or a combination of both; they were most likely the proto-Indo-European ancestors of Finns. However, clearly, the CWC in Finland, eventually must have at some point adopted proto-Germanic or at least strongly influenced by proto-Germanic speakers, as I'm sure contacts between Indo-European speakers from Sweden and Finland, continued until the proto-Germanic dialect took form in Sweden. So, proto-Germanics in Sweden most likely continued keeping contact with the ancestors of Finns, who at some point spoke an Indo-European language of their own until they shifted to a Uralic language (proto-Finnish), and kept being influenced by surrounding Indo-European speakers; the Baltic -- not Germanic -- loanwords, tytär (daughter) and perkele (the Indo-European deity, Perkunas; Baltic pronunciation) is a case in point.

    So anyway, I believe proto-Germanic evolved in Sweden but clearly proto-Germanic speakers weren't limited to nor isolated in Sweden; clearly, they spread elsewhere, to Norway, Denmark, Germany and obviously, to Finland too. Difference is, that Finnish and Saami didn't get language shifted by Germanic languages, although Swedish has been spoken by Finns/Saamis over the centuries, whereas other Indo-European speakers such as Celtic and possibly also Slavic, shifted to Germanic languages in at least southern Germany (whatever Indo-European dialect that was spoken in Germany before the proto-German dialects became mainstream there, we don't know for sure which all these Indo-European languages were, but we know Celtic lost a lot of ground to Germanic in southern Germany, anyway).
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2017-12-26 at 13:36. Reason: clarification
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    1) Proto-Germanic evolved in southern Sweden, and somehow someway, proto-Germanics reached Finland, and began influencing proto-Finns there, to incorporate massive proto-Germanic loanwords, such as, perhaps the most notable Germanic loanword still in use in Finnish, the word for king, kuningas (which comes from proto-Germanic *kuningaz).
    Are you not considering the idea of the Nordic Bronze Age as a broad, continuous horizon of Pre-Proto-Germanic speech, with Scandinavia as its core, but also connecting and involving the lands on both sides of the northern Baltic Sea, influencing the Finnic languages this way?

    1.1) This indicates a Germanic presence in Finland, far older than the Swedish language and modern Swedes (in the genetic sense).
    Likely even older than Proto-Germanic.

    1.2) The Corded Ware presence in Finland, might actually have been proto-Germanics, or proto-Balts, or a combination of both; they were most likely the proto-Indo-European ancestors of Finns.
    More ancient DNA from the region could elucidate whether the Finnish Corded Ware people contributed significantly, or anything at all, to the modern Finnish gene pool. I'd like to investigate how much of the 'Indo-European genetic structure' in Finns is actually in situ genetic remnants, or rather, Indo-Iranian genes imported with the arrival of the Finns.

    So anyway, I believe proto-Germanic evolved in Sweden but clearly proto-Germanic speakers weren't limited to nor isolated in Sweden; clearly, they spread elsewhere, to Norway, Denmark, Germany and obviously, to Finland too. Difference is, that Finnish and Saami didn't get language shifted by Germanic languages, although Swedish has been spoken by Finns/Saamis over the centuries, whereas other Indo-European speakers such as Celtic and possibly also Slavic, shifted to Germanic languages in at least southern Germany (whatever Indo-European dialect that was spoken in Germany before the proto-German dialects became mainstream there, we don't know for sure, but for sure Celtic lost a lot of ground to Germanic in southern Germany, anyway).
    Yeah, I think the model of the broad Nordic region as the incubator of Pre-Proto-Germanic development, and a more constricted region in the SW Baltic (be it southern Sweden, anywhere in Denmark, or northern Germany) as the final bottleneck of ancestral Proto-Germanic, currently makes the most sense.

    I think "Celtic" influences from the south appear in Scandinavia already toward the end/latter part of the Nordic Bronze Age, as I remember reading an archeological text about how Scandinavian religious rites started resembling contemporary (pre-/)Celtic counterparts during the final stages of the NBA. The author suggested that this material shift was likely related to the Celtic loans, and specifically to the origin of the worship of Thor in Scandinavia, derived from Taranis in the Celtic pantheon. I might return to this thread if I find the source.

    Perhaps there was a major political conquest of Scandinavia from the south, by predominantly R1b-carrying clans speaking dialects derived from Pre- or Proto-Celtic, in around 1,000 BC, causing a limited but significant amalgamation of language, cult and paternal haplogroups, which resulted in Proto-Germanic.

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