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Thread: Germanic Urheimat: Jastorf, Nordic Bronze Age, other?2785 days old

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    Default Germanic Urheimat: Jastorf, Nordic Bronze Age, other?

    Where was Germanic Urheimat located? How a proto-Germanic state should be dated?

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    You said a 'State'?
    This is one of the reasons there is this stupid misunderstanding between Slavonian speaking Nations and the Centum ones! -
    In informal speech in all Slavonian speaking Nations the ''state', and 'country', and 'kray' are interchangeable! - stilll meaning different things to others.

    The Germanic Urheimat ... -- I really do think that both the Proto-Germans and Proto-Slavs co-existed in the same territories - that's why the age long rivalry and cooperation hand in hand!
    If you forget about Y-DNA, then otherwise genetically the two branches are more than cousins.
    It all depends on what timeframe you mean AND
    whether this notion of having a 'Proto-' is applicable to all languages.

    And that would explain the word loan!

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    There are many early Palaeo-Germanic and even Pre-Proto-Germanic loanwords in Finnic and Saami, but only few and no earlier than Proto-Germanic loanwords in Baltic and Slavic. Even Celtic contacts are not so early, they are just about pre-Grimm’s Law (~ 500 BC). Contacts to West Uralic branches are much older. Therefore Germanic must have been spoken in the Eastern Sweden already early at the Bronze Age, and there is no need to assume its spreading to south of Sweden (> Jastorf) before the transition to the Iron Age.

    Thus the linguistic evidence truly seems to support the original Scandinavian homeland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker View Post
    You said a 'State'?


    STAGE of course! 'T' on the keyboard is just above 'G'.


    Let Moderator correct this, please!

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-01 at 16:43 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    Thus the linguistic evidence truly seems to support the original Scandinavian homeland.
    Is this a mainstream theory? In the older texts certainly it wasn't. For instance here where the origin of Germanic languages are placed in the Iron Age.
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2012-01-01 at 15:49.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    STAGE of course! 'T' on the keyboard is just above 'G'.


    Let Moderator correct this, please!

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-01 at 16:43 ----------



    Is this a mainstream theory? In the older texts certainly it wasn't. For instance here where the origin of Germanic languages are placed in the Iron Age.
    Do you mean northern Iron Age?
    Blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/, with essence "Believe me, or I'll nuke you".

    H39 - Thracia 1650 BC, Hungary 5000 BC
    I1 - Transdanubia 5000 BC

    Three simple facts about Finns:
    1. Baltic Finnic languages (including Finnish) never came from the Volga basin along with ancestors of present-day Finns.
    2. Finnish I1 (around 30% of all Finns) has Germanic roots from the late Bronze Age or the early Iron Age.
    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

    Väinämöinen - R1a
    Lemminkäinen - I1
    Joukahainen - N

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen View Post
    Do you mean northern Iron Age?
    Iron Age understood as something coming from the South with the Celtic influence (at least this is how I understood the origin of Jasdorf):

    It is assumed that this ability to produce their own, better tools and weapons was the catalyst that led to the development of the first distinct Germanic culture - the co called Jastorf culture - aound 600 B.C. (Keiling 1983; Polome 1985).
    EDIT: This is how Jean M. describes proto-Germanic:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M.
    Proto-Germanic

    Linguists calculate that Proto-Germanic was spoken around 500 BC.16 A language develops within a communicating group. In the days before modern transport and the nation state, a communicating group could not cover a vast territory. The area in which Proto-Germanic evolved was far smaller than the spread of its daughter languages today. We would expect a linguistic boundary to also be a cultural boundary. So the finger points at the Nordic Bronze Age (1730-500 BC) as the cradle of Proto-Germanic. It was a comfortable cradle for many a year. The Nordic Bronze Age began in a welcoming warmth. An earlier climate shift made Southern Scandinavia as warm as present-day central Germany. Groups of people from the widespread Corded Ware and Bell Beaker Cultures had moved north into Jutland and the coasts of what are now Norway and Sweden. There they melded with descendants of the Funnel Beaker and Ertebølle people into a rich Bronze Age culture.17 The wealth and technical excellence of its bronze objects is impressive. Trade was important to this society. So was seacraft. Voyages linked Jutland and Scandia in one communicating web.18B. Cunliffe, Europe Between the Oceans (2008), pp. 213-221.

    However the climate gradually deteriorated, bringing increasingly wetter and colder times to Jutland, culminating in so steep a decline in the decades around 700 BC that much agricultural land was abandoned and bog built up.19 Pollen history reveals a similar picture in Southern Sweden. Around 500 BC forest encroached on areas that had long been farmland.20 Meanwhile an influence from eastern Sweden reached the southern Baltic shores in the Late Bronze Age, providing a clue to where some of the Scandinavian farmers were going.21

    Scandinavia was not utterly deserted in this period. Hunters and fishermen could survive where farming failed. The Saami even expanded. The original homeland of Proto-Saami is deduced to be southern Finland. Around 650 BC Kjelmøy ceramics spread west into Scandinavia, probably marking the arrival of the Saami-speakers.22 Between 400 AD and 1300 AD they lived over a larger area of Sweden than they do now.23 Perhaps the Saami melded with hardy, hunting descendants of the Ertebølle who had never relinquished that way of life. That might explain why the Y-DNA haplogroup I1 is the second most common among the Saami.24

    Farming continued on some dry ridges, but it seems that many farmers shifted southward.25 If Germanic-speakers began spilling south out of Jutland, they would soon encounter the iron-working Celts expanding northwards. The Jastorf Culture seems to be the result. This was an Iron Age culture in what is now north Germany c. 600-0 BC. Though clearly evolving out of the Nordic Bronze Age, elements of the (Celtic) Halstatt Culture are detectable. This was probably the time in which Proto-Germanic borrowed the Celtic words for iron and king.26

    So Proto-Germanic in the end was crafted out of crisis. It seems that its final development was in the compact region of the Jastorf Culture. But by the time Tactitus wrote, Germania was far larger. The border between the Roman Empire and Germania was the river Rhine.27 An expanding language tends to split into dialects, as the spread becomes too wide for constant communication. Eventually these dialects develop into separate languages.
    I don't understand much from this: Nordic Bronze Age or Jastorf?
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2012-01-01 at 17:40.

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    Northern europe, perhaps in a very large area. I do not have alot of knowledge in this subject but today the germanic languages are not uniform. Is it the same in slavic?. German has three variants and english is alot different then swedish. Perhaps alot of that is because of latin influence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    Where was Germanic Urheimat located?
    Perhaps between elbe and oder rivers.
    Last edited by blue3000; 2012-01-01 at 18:14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda
    Is this a mainstream theory? In the older texts certainly it wasn't.
    It is getting mainstream in the western circles, too. But earlier the western scientists did not know about these Uralic contacts - only northern scientists knew, and they didn't publish much in the Anglo-American publications.

    But it is complicated, as Jean wrote. Jastorf may have been the Proto-Germanic bottleneck, from which we can derive all the present Germanic languages. Still, the Pre-Proto-Germanic continuum seems most probably to have been located within the Nordic Bronze Age.

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    It is 'alleged' to have happened here, in some place between Sjælland and Skåne, for about 2500 years ago.

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    There is, as stated earlier, a boatload of Pre-Germanic loanwords in Baltic Finnish, and not in other areas, suggesting that Germanic developed in the Baltic sea. Many of the loanwords predate Grimm's law and probably go back to the bronze age, when there was large scale trade going on in the area, coastal Finland had intense Contacts with the Nordic bronze age Culture.

    The thing I'm wondering about is if there is any Connection between Verner's law and Finnish consonant gradation, if so, maybe they were both caused by language Contact from a third unknown language or through intense bilingualism. Verner's ,law is pretty much the key to understanding the development of Germanic, since it's closely related to the stress and consonant shift.

    The Saami spoke another unknown, now extinct language Before they switched to Uralic, maybe both Finns and Germanics did the same.

    Who knows what the early farmers spoke? maybe a Caucasian or Semitic language whose stress patterns shaped Germanic? I would date the intrusion of IE in Scandinavia to the bronze age, that Culture is pretty much the IE stereotype, but there were older Neolithic cultures there before, with more southern roots.
    Last edited by HinGambleGoth; 2014-06-15 at 01:12.
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