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Thread: Germanic Urheimat: Jastorf, Nordic Bronze Age, other?2481 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simi View Post
    Are you not considering the idea of the Nordic Bronze Age as a broad, continuous horizon of Pre-Proto-Germanic speech, with Scandinavia as its core, but also connecting and involving the lands on both sides of the northern Baltic Sea, influencing the Finnic languages this way?
    Sure. The way I see it, is that Scandinavia was the core of the proto-Germanic urheimat, however, the reason southern Sweden is the best bet, is because Sweden is closer to Finland than Norway and Denmark are, and the Finland connection is important because clearly Finnish has a lot of proto-Germanic loanwords. Does that mean proto-Germanics did not inhabit Denmark or southern Norway? Of course they did. However, proto-Germanic probably took off in southern Sweden and early colonies were launched into Norway and Finland; Denmark was probably part of the core proto-Germanic territory, along with southern Sweden (Skåne/Scania). But proto-Germanic must have evolved in southern Sweden and most likely also Denmark (they're almost geographically connected, so I can't imagine proto-Germanics, not inhabiting or at least being aware of Denmark). The reason why Denmark doesn't work as well as Sweden, is because of its greater distance to Finland, and historically, Danes and Finns have had limited contact. So the fact that Sweden and Finland used to be the same countries, this is probably an old tradition and goes way back to the early days when proto-Germanics from Sweden, influenced the Finnish language with proto-Germanic vocabulary.

    So anyway, the proto-Germanics in Denmark, most likely represent the early settlements of proto-Germanics, in Germany. I mean, the proto-Germans came from Denmark, so to say. Could have also been Sweden, who knows, but if so, from Sweden to Denmark and then Germany.

    On the other hand, who knows, proto-Germanic might have taken form in Germany, and then quickly dispersed into Denmark and then into Sweden, and very shortly thereafter, small settlements in Finland where Finns got the proto-Germanic loanwords, whereas Celtic and Italic didn't receive any proto-Germanic loanwords like Finnish did.

    So the Finnish connection, while an important clue, isn't as precise dating and location, as linguistic paleontology would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simi View Post
    Likely even older than Proto-Germanic.
    Of course. However, Germanic, Baltic and Slavic (and I guess also Celtic), represent the Corded Ware dialects that survived; there were probably other Indo-European dialects from Corded Ware, that never survived because proto-Germanic, proto-Baltic and proto-Slavic became the dominant dialects. This can be compared with many obscure Swedish dialects that are spoken today, which are drowned into oblivion by Rikssvenska.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simi View Post
    More ancient DNA from the region could elucidate whether the Finnish Corded Ware people contributed significantly, or anything at all, to the modern Finnish gene pool.
    I believe they did. Finns are basically a Corded Ware population with some minor Uralic admixture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simi View Post
    I'd like to investigate how much of the 'Indo-European genetic structure' in Finns is actually in situ genetic remnants, or rather, Indo-Iranian genes imported with the arrival of the Finns.
    Well that's also a good question. It's possible Finns might have some Scythian ancestors or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simi View Post
    Yeah, I think the model of the broad Nordic region as the incubator of Pre-Proto-Germanic development, and a more constricted region in the SW Baltic (be it southern Sweden, anywhere in Denmark, or northern Germany) as the final bottleneck of ancestral Proto-Germanic, currently makes the most sense.
    I think what makes southern Sweden a good candidate, is that southern Sweden is a good enough candidate for a relatively isolated region for a new Indo-European dialect to take form. Denmark too, especially the Danish island of Sjaelland and Hovedstaden. Germany isn't a good candidate for proto-Germanic, because there were likely many Celtic speakers there, which would make it more difficult for the proto-Germanic tribe to evolve their own dialect, independent of Celtic influences. Although, it must be pointed out, that Germanic is actually influenced by Celtic, which is probably why Germanic is a centum language, while still being closer to Balto-Slavic languages in its phylogeny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simi View Post
    I think "Celtic" influences from the south appear in Scandinavia already toward the end/latter part of the Nordic Bronze Age, as I remember reading an archeological text about how Scandinavian religious rites started resembling contemporary (pre-/)Celtic counterparts during the final stages of the NBA. The author suggested that this material shift was likely related to the Celtic loans, and specifically to the origin of the worship of Thor in Scandinavia, derived from Taranis in the Celtic pantheon. I might return to this thread if I find the source.
    Yeah Taranis is a good point, in fact, the reconstructed proto-Celtic name for Taranis, is *Toranos. However, this might not be a loan and could possibly be a proto-Indo-European cognate, because there's also Hittite Tarhun, so who knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simi View Post
    Perhaps there was a major political conquest of Scandinavia from the south, by predominantly R1b-carrying clans speaking dialects derived from Pre- or Proto-Celtic, in around 1,000 BC, causing a limited but significant amalgamation of language, cult and paternal haplogroups, which resulted in Proto-Germanic.
    Yeah that's also a possiblity, a strong maybe, so to say. I guess you could say that the proto-Germanics, were R1a-Z284+ males, and then later came proto-Celtic R1b blokes to the Scandinavian peninsula and influenced the Satem proto-Germanic language, into a Centum dialect, so to say, and hence why modern Scandinavians have roughly equal amounts of R1a and R1b.

    Also, this could perhaps explain why ancient Celts are described as Nordic-like by the ancient Romans; it could be that they actually were partially Scandinavian/Germanic at that point.
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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