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Thread: Was Jesus a Socialist? [split] //mod2842 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
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    Jesus was rebellious. He was very anti-elitist. He was consciously poor. He advocated equality, mercy and sacrifice.
    All exactly opposite to what American Christian Right offers and promotes.
    Am I right or am I wrong?

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    Jesus wasn't a socialist per se. He believed in helping the poor, and he believed in helping the sick, and he believed in helping the old, but he also wanted it to be done voluntarily, because if it was done by compulsion it would mean nothing. He wanted people to donate their time and money out of the goodness of their hearts. Give at least ten percent to God, he said. Follow God's laws, and then you can worry about the laws of men, including paying your taxes.

    I don't think Jesus was a capitalist, socialist, or proponent of any particular government. His mission wasn't an earthly one. Whether he was truly the Son of God or not is irrelevant to the point. Some of his followers thought that he was intending to create a new kingdom, but he replied that his kingdom is not of this world. So, whatever happens in the short term happens, from a political point of view. He was focused entirely on the bigger picture.

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    1) Christianity nowadays has nothing to do with Jesus or the first Christians. (i.e. The fist pope was married)
    2) Socialism is not about helping the poor.
    3) Americans are very socialist, they think they are capitalist but it is not truth.
    4) Christianity as institution profess the Capitalism. Some priest are very socialist, but the Vatican always favor the rich, the corporations and they have an agenda against the Communism.

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-08 at 16:33 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kwestos View Post
    All exactly opposite to what American Christian Right offers and promotes.
    There are some things to clarify:

    1) American Christians are involved in charity, they are very conscious about helping the poor or the weak. They often adopt kids from the third world and try to help people doing volunteer work.
    2) The American fanatical Christians in the right (often rednecks) are Christians but they dont act according to the Christianity, they act upon ignorance.
    3) The American Christian Right as a political movement is a populism, many of them are not believers they use Christianity to attract votes.
    Last edited by sean; 2012-01-08 at 16:40.

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    Maybe his ideas were similar to utopic socialism (not scientist socialism of Marx and Engels) from XIXth century, in a far way. But we must be aware that the 90% of Jesus' time was unable to read and writte, the means of production's development was ridiculous... so their ideas could not work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Point here is, Christianity in Jesus' point of view, if followed consistently, would be in line with a socialist economy like the sort of economy you could find in Sweden during the 20th century. Yet Americans are very passionate about Christianity (or so they say) but reject socialism as if socialists were the scum of the earth. This is not logical when examined critically.
    That absolutely is correct.

    However the New Testament (Jesus) is much more socialistic than the Old Testament.

    Most US Christians would not be considered "Christians" 200 years ago. In fact the early British Colonies received a lot of the Christian religious "extremists" and fanatics. You do have to be fanatic a little bit to travel across the Atlantic ocean, in crappy ships, into a wild, savage land, with no guarantees for survival and high chances of painful, excruciating deaths (starvation, disease, Indian arrows, etc.).

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-08 at 09:16 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by sean View Post
    3) Americans are very socialist, they think they are capitalist but it is not truth.
    No… United Statesians are very Individualistic and Anti-government. That's how "Capitalism" is possible. Capitalism relies on anti-socialistic sentiments.
    Last edited by Unome; 2012-01-08 at 17:17.
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    Off-topic for Jesus, on topic for socialism and the low-income American right...

    From the other thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kwestos View Post
    I dont understand why some people despise 'socialists' so much. You dont have to agree with them, but why the hate? I never see anyone complaining 'oh I saw this right wing fanatic in town' but only socialists.

    Ok, I may agree that in some cases it may be ridicolous when a young son of a lawyer is talking about socialism, but are not more ridicolous Americans earning 1000$ a month who support republicans and call Obama Hitler cause he wants healthcare for people who earn 1000$ a month?
    Bolded part is actually a fallacy. The Medicaid program was implemented in 1965 and provides government-funded healthcare for anyone who falls below the defined poverty line, based on income, adjusted for number of dependent household members, and also with assets falling below a certain amount.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid#History

    Here's the government website on Medicaid eligibility:

    https://www.cms.gov/MedicaidEligibility/

    This is a common misconception and/or intentional distortion of the welfare system in the USA. The reality is that if you can document yourself as officially poor with children in this country, you qualify for a number of benefits, including Medicaid, an EBT card (free food), Section 8 housing, a free cell phone, etc.

    The people who suffer the most hardships here, by contrast, are not those who qualify for these programs, but those who are slightly above the defined poverty line, earning too much to qualify, but not enough to provide a decent standard of living on their own. This is especially true for those who are also self-employed, or work as temporary / contract labor, who do not have employee benefit packages of healthcare etc.

    Why are some of these people against government hand-outs? Reasons vary, but a commonly heard story reaching urban legend status, is one where a person comes through the check-out line at the grocery store, wearing 200$ sneakers and other designer clothes, jewelry, etc. and plops down a pile of steak and lobster, then pulls out their government-funded EBT card (or food stamps in the past) to pay for it. Then they take their groceries out to the parking lot, where they load them into the back of a luxury SUV with custom rims and drive away. This story is often told by those claiming to be either behind that customer in line, or the grocery store checker ringing up the food, both of whom are working hard and struggling to survive, while not qualifying for this type of benefit. Personally I have never seen an example this blatant, but I have seen similar, and my cousin who worked as a checker at a grocery store 20 years ago, he does have stories like this. Prior to EBT cards, food stamps were also known to be traded for partial face value to drug dealers.

    So in short what you have from these perceptions is the sense that there's an underclass of rapidly breeding, entitlement enabled, criminal, fraudulent, net-loss-to-society-yielding scum being subsidized with the tax revenue of the "working poor" who themselves qualify for none of these benefits. Thus the "working poor" see themselves as superior to these freeloading parasites and are easily convinced to support anything framed as being against them.

    Cue canned response about bankers and hedge fund managers? Save it for someone who cares. When you live in or near an area where > 50% of children are born out of wedlock, many of them teenage pregnancies, the raw number of in-your-face examples of above-mentioned scum easily overwhelm the perception of that one stereotypical greedy Jew on Wall Street shown on the news, unless you happened to have personally lost your retirement fund to his actions. If you ring up the total loss it could be that one greedy Jew > 1000 freeloading ghetto and trailer trash, but it's the perception in day-to-day life that impacts the most, so the 1000 scums win.

    On-topic for Christianity and right-wing ideologies, I don't believe in Jesus so I'm a poor example. However, I have known many of them so I get some idea of how they think. One guy in particular, I used to work for. He is a hardcore Christian, regular attendee and active in his church, etc. and also a TEA party member. He told me a story once, about a single mother at his church, and how he and some others were trying to help her through some difficulties. She needed financial help. He went on to explain how basically she was begging them for money, but when they tried to help her create a household budget, she had cable TV, a 100$ / month cell phone bill, etc. basically a bunch of wasteful expenses for things she could live without. He couldn't suggest she cut these things or else he would become the "bad guy". This guy was a total tightwad who drive old used vehicles, bought the cheapest thing on the menu at lunch, etc. in spite of being a high earner. So in spite of his Christian beliefs, he saw himself as someone who sacrificed luxuries, while this woman was nothing but a shameless beggar. Actually I know many Christian types like this, who buy second-hand clothing for their children, drive beater cars until they completely fall apart, make a sort of competition out of being thrifty... so when they see that bitch at the grocery store with a stack of t-bones whip out her EBT card to pay and then drive off in an Escalade on spinners, the natural reaction for them is a holier-than-thou sense of hatred.

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    Well, I'm not a socialist or a Christian, so there is no hypocrisy in my ideology.
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    Jesus is the ultimate syncretic hero. He can be whatever you want him to be! Not all of these are mutually exclusive.

    * Space alien. Check.
    * Cynic philosopher. Check.
    * Sorcerer/wizard. Check.
    * Deity. Check.
    * Aryan crusader. Check.
    * Socialist commentator of the classical world. Check.
    * Bastard son of a Roman soldier and a Jewess. Check.
    * Buddhist. Check.
    * Hindu. Check.
    * Black. Check.
    * White. Check.
    * A repackaged Julius Caesar. Check.
    * A red-haired Celt since Gauls apparently lived in Galilee. Check.
    * A myth like Paul Bunyan. Check.
    * Homosexual. Check.
    * A bigamist. Check.

    Etc.

    If he existed at all "Jesus" most likely belonged to some communal group like the Essenes like his mentor John the Baptizer probably was.
    Last edited by The American; 2012-01-08 at 17:56.
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