User Tag List

Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 91

Thread: proto-Celtic R1a(?) and proto-Indo-European ancestry in modern Celts? [split] //mod2681 days old

  1. #1
    Senior Moderator
    Plant of Life = Biological Magic 麻 EliasAlucard's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-10-22
    Posts
    14,679
    Location
    Sweden
    Gender
    Age
    34
    Y-DNA
    J1a2a1a2-P58+
    mtDNA
    H5a
    Race
    Caucasian
    Phenotype
    Alpinid
    Metaethnos
    proto-Semitic
    Ethnicity
    Assyrian/Armenian
    Politics
    Environment, Cannabis
    Religion
    Secular Agnostic
    Assyria Assyria 1913-1923 Armenia Lebanon Sweden Greece

    Default proto-Celtic R1a(?) and proto-Indo-European ancestry in modern Celts? [split] //mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    It's clear now that there were lots of movements from the Middle East into Europe during the Neolithic.

    It's from the interplay between these groups, and even Mesolithic survivors, that the proto-Indo-Europeans formed in Central Europe. But their patriarchal nature meant that they had a high frequency of R1a.

    Then there was a domino effect, and I suspect that groups high in R1b expanded rapidly in West Central Europe after being Indo-Europeanized, swamping many other lineages in the region.
    The R1b in Celtic speakers is a mystery. I don't think it can easily be explained by domino effect to R1b western Europeans. I actually believe the proto-Celts were R1a too, at least for some time. We must keep in mind the Gallic Wars, which possibly lead to lots of R1a Celtic males killed off and the Celtic women who did survive selected with whatever R1b men (Basques?) who were around. Because modern Celts have significant autosomal DNA from "eastern Europe" (proto-Indo-European); although it's obviously not as high as in Balto-Slavic populations, it's there and certainly higher than take say the autosomal DNA descended from the proto-Indo-Europeans in Iranians or Indians. But modern Celts are often swarthier, less blue eyed and blond and all that than how the Romans described the ancient Celts (tall, blond, blue eyed etcetera).

    So I think something happened after proto-Celtic, and that's a possible scenario and a likely hypothesis of mine. I have yet to see anyone postulate a convincing scenario why modern Celts no longer are Y-DNA R1a.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    Lolski, looks like someone's reading my blog...

    Link
    Hehe, recognition is always nice
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2012-02-15 at 08:53. Reason: clarify
    ReactOS <--- support this project so that we can get rid of Windows!
    Ubuntu MATE 16.04.1 LTS | PRISM-Break! | Windows7sins

    “A wise man makes his own decisions; an ignorant man follows public opinion.” ― Chinese proverb

    “Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.” ― H. L. Mencken

    “The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.” ― Socrates

    “Damnant quod non intelligunt.” ― Latin proverb

    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to EliasAlucard For This Useful Post:

    Heladageniskogen (2012-02-16), Loxias (2012-02-15), Pioterus (2012-02-16), Polako (2012-02-15)

  3. # ADS
    Advertisement bot
    Join Date
    2013-03-24
    Location
    ForumBiodiversity.com
    Age
    2010
    Posts
    All threads
       
     

  4. #2
    Established Member
    no internet at home :( Loxias's Avatar
    Last Online
    2012-12-10 @ 02:28
    Join Date
    2010-01-10
    Posts
    2,217
    Location
    Australia
    Gender
    Age
    30
    Y-DNA
    G2a
    mtDNA
    H1j2 (Dad : N1b2)
    Metaethnos
    Global Nomads
    Ethnicity
    French
    Phenotype
    atlanto-balkanoid
    Politics
    Easily Convinced
    Religion
    is interesting
    France Australia Malaysia

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    The R1b in Celtic speakers is a mystery. I don't think it can easily be explained by domino effect to R1b western Europeans. I actually believe the proto-Celts were R1a too, at least for some time. We must keep in mind the Gallic Wars, which possibly lead to lots of R1a Celtic males killed off and the Celtic women who did survive selected with whatever R1b men (Basque?) who were around. Because modern Celts have significant autosomal DNA from "eastern Europe" (proto-Indo-European), although it's obviously not as high as in Balto-Slavic populations, it's there and certainly higher than take say Iranians or Indians. But modern Celts are often swarthier, less blue eyed and blond and all that than how the Romans described the ancient Celts.

    So I think something happened after proto-Celtic, and that's a possible scenario and a likely hypothesis of mine. I have yet to see anyone postulate a convincing scenario why Celts no longer are R1a.

    Hehe, recognition is always nice
    I mostly agree with that. But I think (and wrote it in another thread), that most of what is called Celts nowadays is accultured pre-Celtic Western European populations (probably more related to Basques in a way or another), who probably arrived with R1b not too long before the Celts started conquering them.

    I've noticed btw, when using dodecad statistics, if you make a ratio of Gedrosia vs. Caucasus component. The amount of Caucasus is superior to the amount of Gedrosia in all European populations except for the Basques (where Caucasus becomes almost absent), and in France and the British Isles. Disregarding the components as indication of origin for the population, we can still see a difference of "middle eastern" input between the Atlantic fringe and the rest of Europe which could be linked to that pre-Celtic Western European population and R1b.
    And likewise, the Gedrosia component becomes almost absent in areas that are suspected to be the Indo-European Urheimat, while the Caucasus component remains high. I don't think the component is indicative of a Caucasian ancestry per se, but that it's a good marker for the separating the more ancient from more recent European neolithic and post-neolithic waves.
    Last edited by Loxias; 2012-02-15 at 09:38.
    Eurogenes : FR7
    dodecad: DOD332
    Artemis: NFrance1

    http://apolloxias.tumblr.com/

    ...J'avais pourtant vu le diable
    Faire une croix pour la victoire...

  5. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Loxias For This Useful Post:

    EliasAlucard (2012-02-15), Rick (2012-02-15), Wojewoda (2012-02-15)

  6. #3
    Senior Moderator
    Plant of Life = Biological Magic 麻 EliasAlucard's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-10-22
    Posts
    14,679
    Location
    Sweden
    Gender
    Age
    34
    Y-DNA
    J1a2a1a2-P58+
    mtDNA
    H5a
    Race
    Caucasian
    Phenotype
    Alpinid
    Metaethnos
    proto-Semitic
    Ethnicity
    Assyrian/Armenian
    Politics
    Environment, Cannabis
    Religion
    Secular Agnostic
    Assyria Assyria 1913-1923 Armenia Lebanon Sweden Greece

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Loxias View Post
    I mostly agree with that. But I think (and wrote it in another thread), that most of what is called Celts nowadays is accultured pre-Celtic Western European populations (probably more related to Basques in a way or another), who probably arrived with R1b not too long before the Celts started conquering them.
    I don't think modern Celts (including the French if one still thinks of them as Celts) have a lot of Basque ancestry, although they have obviously more of Basque ancestry than take say, Poles or Scandinavians have:



    According to Building History (Jean Manco), the proto-Celtic urheimat was in between France and Germany (what does she base this on? Anthony? Mallory? General history?):



    Original image and her POV found here.

    So anyway, if that's where the original proto-Celtic urheimat was, it's not too far off from the Basques, assuming they've always lived between France and Spain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loxias View Post
    I've noticed btw, when using dodecad statistics, if you make a ratio of Gedrosia vs. Caucasus component. The amount of Caucasus is superior to the amount of Gedrosia in all European populations except for the Basques (where Caucasus becomes almost absent), and in France and the British Isles. Disregarding the components as indication of origin for the population, we can still see a difference of "middle eastern" input between the Atlantic fringe and the rest of Europe which could be linked to that pre-Celtic Western European population and R1b.
    And likewise, the Gedrosia component becomes almost absent in areas that are suspected to be the Indo-European Urheimat, while the Caucasus component remains high. I don't think the component is indicative of a Caucasian ancestry per se, but that it's a good marker for the separating the more ancient from more recent European neolithic and post-neolithic waves.
    Hmm, so the proto-Indo-Europeans were high on the Caucasus component? I think that sounds credible. I know Dienekes has been speculating about this but he's totally wrong in thinking this Caucasus component could somehow support the Anatolian hypothesis.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2012-02-15 at 09:43. Reason: clarify
    ReactOS <--- support this project so that we can get rid of Windows!
    Ubuntu MATE 16.04.1 LTS | PRISM-Break! | Windows7sins

    “A wise man makes his own decisions; an ignorant man follows public opinion.” ― Chinese proverb

    “Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.” ― H. L. Mencken

    “The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.” ― Socrates

    “Damnant quod non intelligunt.” ― Latin proverb

    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

  7. #4
    Established Member
    no internet at home :( Loxias's Avatar
    Last Online
    2012-12-10 @ 02:28
    Join Date
    2010-01-10
    Posts
    2,217
    Location
    Australia
    Gender
    Age
    30
    Y-DNA
    G2a
    mtDNA
    H1j2 (Dad : N1b2)
    Metaethnos
    Global Nomads
    Ethnicity
    French
    Phenotype
    atlanto-balkanoid
    Politics
    Easily Convinced
    Religion
    is interesting
    France Australia Malaysia

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Hmm, so the proto-Indo-Europeans were high on the Caucasus component? I think that sounds credible.
    Well, not necessarily. They could've been like 15-20% Caucasian, I wouldn't call that high. What is more important is that they were not Gedrosian at all (in the European context).

    ---------- Post added 2012-02-15 at 20:47 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    I don't think modern Celts (including the French if one still thinks of them as Celts) have a lot of Basque ancestry, although they have obviously more of Basque ancestry than take say, Poles or Scandinavians have:



    According to Building History (Jean Manco), the proto-Celtic urheimat was in between France and Germany (what does she base this on? Anthony? Mallory? General history?):



    Original image and her POV found here.

    So anyway, if that's where the original proto-Celtic urheimat was, it's not too far off from the Basques, assuming they've always lived between France and Spain.
    I said in the other post that the pre-IE Central Western Euro Celts-to-be were high in I, R1b and G2a. They were most likely to be more closely related to Bascoid Western Europe in a way, but far less than the Atlantic Fringe.
    And I use like Basque in a very inclusive way. Para-Aquitan might be better. Or maybe simply Atlantic Fringe pre-IE populations.
    Eurogenes : FR7
    dodecad: DOD332
    Artemis: NFrance1

    http://apolloxias.tumblr.com/

    ...J'avais pourtant vu le diable
    Faire une croix pour la victoire...

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Loxias For This Useful Post:

    EliasAlucard (2012-02-15)

  9. #5
    Senior Moderator
    Plant of Life = Biological Magic 麻 EliasAlucard's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-10-22
    Posts
    14,679
    Location
    Sweden
    Gender
    Age
    34
    Y-DNA
    J1a2a1a2-P58+
    mtDNA
    H5a
    Race
    Caucasian
    Phenotype
    Alpinid
    Metaethnos
    proto-Semitic
    Ethnicity
    Assyrian/Armenian
    Politics
    Environment, Cannabis
    Religion
    Secular Agnostic
    Assyria Assyria 1913-1923 Armenia Lebanon Sweden Greece

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Loxias View Post
    Well, not necessarily. They could've been like 15-20% Caucasian, I wouldn't call that high. What is more important is that they were not Gedrosian at all (in the European context).
    Do you think the dominant R1b clade in modern Celts correlates with a lower Caucasus component in Celts compared with for example Poles? I'm not implying the Irish have a lower Caucasus component; I haven't actually checked. Just asking in order to test your theory.

    By the way, I agree with you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Loxias View Post
    I believe Celtic languages and culture were born in what is now Southern Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Northeastern France (see Hallstatt and La Tène cultures) as a result of the arrival of a more ancient Indo-European population (likely comign as a horse-riding conquereor) in the area, and of the new 'creole' culture that emerged from the Indo-European elite (mostly R1a carrying) and native population's (mostly carrying I1, G2a and R1b) idiosyncrasy.

    From then on, after cementing as an ethnicity Celts spread around, having a strongest impact to the West where through conquest and elite dominance (but with a certain amount of mixing in, I am sure), they acculturated the local pre-Indo-European (mostly R1b carrying) populations.
    I think the phenotype of the original Celts is probably best illustrated by current Francophone Swiss, and to a lesser extent Southern Germans, other Swisses, Austrians and Northeastern French. Probably mostly Noric and Cromagnid, with medium complexions.

    Also, I think red hair isn't a Celtic thing, but a pre-Celtic Western European trait which is mostly associated with Celts now only because Celtic languages have survived in the Atlantic fringe, where most likely original Celtic genetic imput was at its lowest of the Celtic expansion.
    Certainly, red hair isn't a Celtic trait originally. As I've mentioned before, some Israelites in the bible are described as having red hair, and modern Assyrians still have individuals with red hair even though we have one of the lowest north European component of all Dodecad groups (can Polako verify we have a low north European component for the sake of corroboration? Because that would really mean red hair is most likely from the Middle East).

    So yeah, the proto-Indo-Europeans did have red hair individuals (Tocharians had red hair), and this among many other evidence corroborates their Middle Eastern ancestry (and Celts too).

    Loxias and Polako, neither of you replied about R1a in Celts. What do you think happened with it? Was it around before the Gallic Wars? Are there any ancient DNA remains from France showing R-M17?
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2012-02-15 at 10:06. Reason: clarify
    ReactOS <--- support this project so that we can get rid of Windows!
    Ubuntu MATE 16.04.1 LTS | PRISM-Break! | Windows7sins

    “A wise man makes his own decisions; an ignorant man follows public opinion.” ― Chinese proverb

    “Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.” ― H. L. Mencken

    “The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.” ― Socrates

    “Damnant quod non intelligunt.” ― Latin proverb

    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

  10. #6
    Established Member
    Junior Member
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-10-26
    Posts
    6,119
    Gender
    Ethnicity
    Brazilian
    Brazil

    Default

    R1b was not present only among Celtic IE speakers, but also Italic and Germanic speakers, at highly significant levels. It has a broader range than only among Celts, and it possibly included other IE speakers other than Celtic, Italic and Germanic. The oldest variations of R1b1b2 in Europe are actually more common among Germanic speakers, like R-L11+. These are just facts.

    ---------- Post added 2012-02-15 at 10:57 ----------

    Here is another explanation for the introduction of IE languages in France:

    Justement, j'ai commencé ce sujet pour que tout le monde s'exprime et que cette "énigme" soit discutée. Moi, je me place dans le camp de ceux qui pense que R-L23 vient de l'Est et que le stade R-L23 a correspondu à une "grande migration" , un peu tous azimuts, l'un des rameaux ayant choisi d'aller vers l'Europe de l'Ouest. Parmi les éléments qui tendent à corroborer ce scénario il y a la répartition des SNPs L51 et L11, par rapport à L23 : on constate une sorte de progression vers l'ouest mais les données sont rares car les R-L51* et R-L11* sont rares ; ce sont des stades intermédiaires et leur rareté est en bonne accord avec la notion que l'évolution a été rapide et qu'il ne s'agit pas d'une lente progression de l'Est vers l'Ouest.

    Que s'est-il passé ? Là on rentre dans les hypothèses et les interprétations. J'ai commencé ce sujet en indiquant qu'une origine aussi à l'Est que l'Altaï est possible et c'est dans cette région que la domestication du cheval semble avoir eu lieu, vers 6000 avant JC. Que ce soit les R1b eux mêmes ou des voisins a assez peu d'importance pour la suite. L'idée est donc que le cheval a permis ces "grandes migrations" en offrant une force de pénétration inconnue ; ils ont pu traverser des territoires sans que l'hostilité ou non des habitants soit à prendre en considération. Par contre, on constate que ces présumés cavaliers semblent avoir "piétiné" en Europe centrale ou s'opère le changement R-L23 --> R-L51 --> R-L11 , puis rapidement aussi (semble-t-il) R-L11 évolue en 2 branches distinctes : U106 et P312. Seuls ces 2 groupes sont bien représentés à l'ouest ; les cas de P312 ou U106 trouvés au moyen orient ou très à l'Est de l'Europe semblent pouvoir être expliqués par une origine historique récente. R-L23 à l'Est (et moyen orient) et U106/P312 à l'ouest , c'est l'ancienne séparation ht35/ ht15 .
    http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/top...96#entry269196

    Basically what he says is that the domestication of the horse would be an explanation for the "force of penetration" of R1b in Europe. The study of R1b clades point for their Eastern origins, not too far from the place the domestication of the horse would have taken place. The key for the "great migrations" would have been the horse, people being able to cross entire territories with it. If R1b males domesticated or not the horse, this would be irrelevant, since they would have been in the vicinity where it happened and thus able to take advantage of it.
    Last edited by Ubirajara; 2012-02-15 at 11:06.
    Sche innam me pepicke keseagu

  11. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Ubirajara For This Useful Post:

    Silesian (2012-02-15), yahooland (2012-02-15)

  12. #7
    Established Member
    no internet at home :( Loxias's Avatar
    Last Online
    2012-12-10 @ 02:28
    Join Date
    2010-01-10
    Posts
    2,217
    Location
    Australia
    Gender
    Age
    30
    Y-DNA
    G2a
    mtDNA
    H1j2 (Dad : N1b2)
    Metaethnos
    Global Nomads
    Ethnicity
    French
    Phenotype
    atlanto-balkanoid
    Politics
    Easily Convinced
    Religion
    is interesting
    France Australia Malaysia

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Do you think the dominant R1b clade in modern Celts correlates with a lower Caucasus component in Celts compared with for example Poles? I'm not implying the Irish have a lower Caucasus component; I haven't actually checked. Just asking in order to test your theory.


    Here is a map I made of the Gedrosian vs. Caucasus component based on k12b
    -red grows with predominance of Gedrosian over Caucasus
    -green grows with predominance of Caucasus over Gedrosian

    Notice how in Europe (only) it seems to be quite related to R1b vs R1a.


    Here are some values to drive the point home.
    Calculation of the value is =100*(caucasusscore-gedrosianscore)/(caucasusscore+gedrosianscore)
    Basque =-100
    Norway = -97.6
    Ireland = -96.7
    Argyll = -92.6
    Swedish =-73
    Cornwall = -70
    English = -54.7
    French = +3.1
    German = +14.6
    Hungarians = +59.6
    Polish = +92.1
    Ukrainian = +96.4

    And also, btw, to prove that the Indo-European wave we are thinking about do not derive from current Caucasus population, the population with the highest ratio in the Caucasus is the Abkhasian with only +60.6 (and lowest in Lezgins at +24.3)
    Last edited by Loxias; 2012-02-15 at 12:39.
    Eurogenes : FR7
    dodecad: DOD332
    Artemis: NFrance1

    http://apolloxias.tumblr.com/

    ...J'avais pourtant vu le diable
    Faire une croix pour la victoire...

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Loxias For This Useful Post:

    EliasAlucard (2012-02-15)

  14. #8
    Senior Moderator
    Plant of Life = Biological Magic 麻 EliasAlucard's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-10-22
    Posts
    14,679
    Location
    Sweden
    Gender
    Age
    34
    Y-DNA
    J1a2a1a2-P58+
    mtDNA
    H5a
    Race
    Caucasian
    Phenotype
    Alpinid
    Metaethnos
    proto-Semitic
    Ethnicity
    Assyrian/Armenian
    Politics
    Environment, Cannabis
    Religion
    Secular Agnostic
    Assyria Assyria 1913-1923 Armenia Lebanon Sweden Greece

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ubirajara View Post
    R1b was not present only among Celtic IE speakers, but also Italic and Germanic speakers, at highly significant levels. It has a broader range than only among Celts, and it possibly included other IE speakers other than Celtic, Italic and Germanic. The oldest variations of R1b1b2 in Europe are actually more common among Germanic speakers, like R-L11+. These are just facts.
    Can't be facts if you have no proof of R1b in the proto-Indo-Europeans. So far, all the proof from ancient DNA and Indo-European migration patterns point to a single lineage of R1a-M17, which is also supported by the linguistic evidence in the case of the classical proto-Indo-European language:

    “All linguistic evidence suggests that Proto-Indo-European society was patrilineal in descent and male dominated according to that much overworked term patriarchal.”
    — J.P. Mallory, In Search of the Indo-Europeans: Language, Archaeology, and Myth, ISBN 050005052X, p. 123

    So it's very unlikey Y-DNA R1b was around in the proto-Indo-Europeans. And since proto-Celtic is a direct descendant of PIE at a transitional stage, I wouldn't be surprised if Y-DNA R1a men were around in the early days of the proto-Celts, and for whatever reason their Y-chromosomal lineage died out later on. Could have been because of the Gallic Wars, the Black Death, or other reasons why R1b didn't dominate in north-western Europe.

    I also think Gimbutas corroborates me here. I've posted this before but I'll post it again for the sake of context:

    “The term Old Europe is applied to a pre-Indo-European culture of Europe, a culture matrifocal and probably matrilinear, agricultural and sedentary, egalitarian and peaceful. It contrasted sharply with the ensuing Proto-Indo-European culture which was patriarchal, stratified, pastoral, mobile, and war-oriented, superimposed on all Europe, except the southern and western fringes, in the course of three waves of infiltration from the Russian steppes, between 4500 and 2500 BC. During and after this period the female deities, or more accurately the Goddess Creatrix in her many aspects, were largely replaced by the predominantly male divinities of the Indo-Europeans. What developed after c. 2500 BC was a melange of the two mythic systems, Old European and Indo-European.” — Marija Gimbutas, The Language of the Goddess, 1989a, cited in Aryan Idols, p. 289, ISBN 0226028607

    Notice how well R1a correlates with her estimation of where Indo-European culture spread in Europe:



    So whoever the proto-Celts were, it's unlikely they were R1b in their most ancient and recognisable Celtic form. Not even Germans today lack R1a and it's not from Poles but from the proto-Indo-Europeans.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2012-02-15 at 12:59. Reason: clarify
    ReactOS <--- support this project so that we can get rid of Windows!
    Ubuntu MATE 16.04.1 LTS | PRISM-Break! | Windows7sins

    “A wise man makes his own decisions; an ignorant man follows public opinion.” ― Chinese proverb

    “Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.” ― H. L. Mencken

    “The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.” ― Socrates

    “Damnant quod non intelligunt.” ― Latin proverb

    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

  15. #9
    Established Member
    Junior Member
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-10-26
    Posts
    6,119
    Gender
    Ethnicity
    Brazilian
    Brazil

    Default

    It looks like you have already made your mind and you won't admit those complex events can have taken place other than as IE or PIE as an exclusively R1a males phenomenon. I am not like you on this, definitely not. What I can see is that several different scenarios may have taken place, and we can't be sure of which yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Can't be facts if you have no proof of R1b in the proto-Indo-Europeans. So far, all the proof from ancient DNA and Indo-European migration patterns point to a single lineage of R1a-M17, which is also supported by the linguistic evidence in the case of the classical proto-Indo-European language:

    So it's very unlikey Y-DNA R1b was around in the proto-Indo-Europeans. And since proto-Celtic is a direct descendant of PIE at a transitional stage, I wouldn't be surprised if Y-DNA R1a men were around in tje early days of the proto-Celts, and for whatever reason their Y-chromosomal lineage died out later on. Could have been because of the Gallic Wars, the Black Death, or other reasons why R1b didn't dominate in north-western Europe.
    Sche innam me pepicke keseagu

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Ubirajara For This Useful Post:

    Silesian (2012-02-15)

  17. #10
    Senior Moderator
    Plant of Life = Biological Magic 麻 EliasAlucard's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-10-22
    Posts
    14,679
    Location
    Sweden
    Gender
    Age
    34
    Y-DNA
    J1a2a1a2-P58+
    mtDNA
    H5a
    Race
    Caucasian
    Phenotype
    Alpinid
    Metaethnos
    proto-Semitic
    Ethnicity
    Assyrian/Armenian
    Politics
    Environment, Cannabis
    Religion
    Secular Agnostic
    Assyria Assyria 1913-1923 Armenia Lebanon Sweden Greece

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ubirajara View Post
    It looks like you have already made your mind and you won't admit those complex events can have taken place other than as IE or PIE as an exclusively R1a males phenomenon. I am not like you on this, definitely not. What I can see is that several different scenarios may have taken place, and we can't be sure of which yet.
    Well, unlike you I'm not R1b and so I have no stake in the Indo-Europeanness (or lack thereof) of R1b. But I am genuinely trying to understand how R1a disappeared in the Celts, as it should theoretically be there, or was there at some point.

    I have no bias in this as I am thoroughly and purely Semitic in ancestry. But I haven't made up my mind that it was R1a and nothing else; that's just what the evidence from aDNA is saying, and modern Celtic and Germanic speakers (and Balto-Slavic for that matter) being non-R1a is not conclusive proof of R1b in the proto-Indo-Europans.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2012-02-15 at 13:11.
    ReactOS <--- support this project so that we can get rid of Windows!
    Ubuntu MATE 16.04.1 LTS | PRISM-Break! | Windows7sins

    “A wise man makes his own decisions; an ignorant man follows public opinion.” ― Chinese proverb

    “Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.” ― H. L. Mencken

    “The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.” ― Socrates

    “Damnant quod non intelligunt.” ― Latin proverb

    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 544
    Last Post: 2017-09-02, 02:37
  2. Proto-Indo-European
    By Sevastopol in forum Linguistics
    Replies: 67
    Last Post: 2017-09-01, 18:48
  3. Proto Indo European nouns
    By Ubirajara in forum Linguistics
    Replies: 92
    Last Post: 2014-01-15, 05:41
  4. Replies: 942
    Last Post: 2012-08-17, 17:58
  5. Proto-Indo-European archeogenetic sites
    By Polako in forum General Genetics Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 2011-05-18, 17:58

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
<