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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by birko19 View Post
    I suppose you make a lot of sense

    Read more:

    Interestingly, attempts to date the Y-STR-based diversity of R1b-M269 chromosomes in populations from Europe and Turkey have yielded Holocene expansion times in both regions.7, 22, 23 These findings have led to the reappraisal that R1b-M269 in Europe is young and likely associated with a Neolithic demic expansion from the Near East through Anatolia.


    This is not R1b as a whole, this is R1b-M269 (R1b1a2*), which happens to be R1b1a2a-L23's parent.
    Uhm, that doesn't mean every R1b1b2 subclade today entered Europe through one migration alone. I'm pretty certain that paragraph is referring to the ancestor group which spawned the sophisticated and advanced Western European subclades, not the L23+ R1b1b2a* you see today in small numbers in Eastern Europe/Anatolia which were certainly the result of a recent migration by Oghuz Turks.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-09 at 02:21 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    This does not even include Druze. And, even though the N Mesopotamian haplotypes are basically limited to "Nestorian" Assyrians and one Jew from Zakho, the STR diversity is significant at 12 markers.
    I'm pretty sure Levants belong to a different subclade of R1b. It's the same subclade found in Africa apparently, R1b1c.

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  3. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalethewhale View Post
    Uhm, that doesn't mean every R1b1b2 subclade today entered Europe through one migration alone. I'm pretty certain that paragraph is referring to the ancestor group which spawned the sophisticated and advanced Western European subclades, not the L23+ R1b1b2a* you see today in small numbers in Eastern Europe/Anatolia which were certainly the result of a recent migration by Oghuz Turks.
    Actually, the major West European R1b's fall under the L23+ branch.

    I'm pretty sure Levants belong to a different subclade of R1b. It's the same subclade found in Africa apparently, R1b1c.
    R1b1c is not the only R1b lineage that exists in the Levant, L23+ too exists.
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    Paternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> R2a*
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> J1*
    Maternal Grandmother's Y-DNA --> J2a4b*

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  4. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalethewhale View Post
    Uhm, that doesn't mean every R1b1b2 subclade today entered Europe through one migration alone. I'm pretty certain that paragraph is referring to the ancestor group which spawned the sophisticated and advanced Western European subclades, not the L23+ R1b1b2a* you see today in small numbers in Eastern Europe/Anatolia which were certainly the result of a recent migration by Oghuz Turks.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-09 at 02:21 ----------



    I'm pretty sure Levants belong to a different subclade of R1b. It's the same subclade found in Africa apparently, R1b1c.
    There is a problem. You are trying to a progression from R-M73, and infer a Western migration by Turks, which in turn mutates into M269- L23.

    R1b1a1 (R-M73)

    R1b1a1 (2011 name) is defined by the presence of SNP marker M73. It has been found at generally low frequencies throughout central Eurasia,[21] but has been found with relatively high frequency among particular populations there including Hazaras in Pakistan (8/25 = 32%);[22] and Bashkirs in Bashkortostan (62/471 = 13.2%), 44 of these being found among the 80 tested Bashkirs of the Abzelilovsky District in the Republic of Bashkortostan (55.0%).[3] Four R-M73 men were also found in a 523-person study of Turkey,[4] and one person in a 168-person study of Crete.

    1]R-M73 is not to be found in any significant quantities in Eastern/Southern/Western/ Europe.

    2] L23+ R1b1b2a* is found in Europe in very small quantities. The earliest sample is 1180c.e.[ sample found in Church remains-U98VT-]which predates Oghuz confederation by 300 years.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aq_Qoyunlu.png

    3]L23+ R1b1b2a*Are Oghuz samples are L584- or L584+. This is important new snp marker..

    4]Even if you try and stretch your idea, you run into a road block.
    Upstream of R-M73 marker is R-P25[R1b1* is rare]. Which is even older than R-M73 marker.

    " 3 cases in the Ukraine, in a study of 322 people from the Dniester-Carpathian region, who were P25 positive, but M269 negative.[20]"

    "Cruciani et al. in the large 2010 study found 3 cases amongst 1173 Italians"

    "1 out of 328 West Asians and 1 out of 156"

    So from these numbers are we to conclude that the migration was actually reverse and that R1b1* and it's clades downstream originate from Europe?
    Last edited by Silesian; 2012-04-09 at 17:18.

  5. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by birko19 View Post
    Actually, the major West European R1b's fall under the L23+ branch.
    You didn't understand what I said. Of course they test positive for L23+, but they belong to far more advanced subclades of L23+ only found in Western Europe.


    R1b1c is not the only R1b lineage that exists in the Levant, L23+ too exists.
    L23+ probably does exist in the Levant, but the major R1b lineage in Africa and the Levant is R1b1c and their subclades. L23+ in the Levant is most likely the result of the Ottoman presence in the Levant for 700 years.


    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    There is a problem. You are trying to a progression from R-M73, and infer a Western migration by Turks, which in turn mutates into M269- L23.
    Actually that goes just perfectly along with the theory because if M73, M269, and L23 are all found in Central Asian Turks, then it actually confirms that the transition between R1b1b1* (R-M73) and R1b1b2* (R-M269) occurred in Central Asia.

    1]R-M73 is not to be found in any significant quantities in Eastern/Southern/Western/ Europe.
    Exactly, since it's only found in Central Asian Turks.

    2] L23+ R1b1b2a* is found in Europe in very small quantities. The earliest sample is 1180c.e.[ sample found in Church remains-U98VT-]which predates Oghuz confederation by 300 years.
    It predates only the Aq Qoyunlu dynasty, not all Oghuz Turks:

    "these Oghuz penetrated as far as the lower Danube, crossed it and invaded the Balkans, where they were either crushed[2] or struck down by an outbreak of plague, causing the survivors either to flee or to join the Byzantine imperial forces as mercenaries (1065).[3]"

    3]L23+ R1b1b2a*Are Oghuz samples are L584- or L584+. This is important new snp marker..
    That's a really recently discovered marker that no one knows anything about. I don't know if Oghuz Turks are L584- or L584+. Apparently 23andme doesn't even pick it up. For all we know this mutation could have occurred in some populations during the last 600 years alone.

    4]Even if you try and stretch your idea, you run into a road block.
    Upstream of R-M73 marker is R-P25[R1b1* is rare]. Which is even older than R-M73 marker.

    " 3 cases in the Ukraine, in a study of 322 people from the Dniester-Carpathian region, who were P25 positive, but M269 negative.[20]"

    "Cruciani et al. in the large 2010 study found 3 cases amongst 1173 Italians"

    "1 out of 328 West Asians and 1 out of 156"

    So from these numbers are we to conclude that the migration was actually reverse and that R1b1* and it's clades downstream originate from Europe?
    This is the thing, we're not talking about the overall origin of R1b here. R1b as a whole probably did originate in West Asia since R1b1c* is found in Africa and the Levant and like you said R1b1* is found in Europe and West Asia.

    My theory is that the R1b1b1*/R1b1b2*/R1b1b2a* transitional mutations occurred in Central Asia and R1b1b2a* (L23+) was taken to Europe via the Celtic/Italic migrations that occurred much longer ago, allowing for much longer timespan for their further development in Western Europe.

    The second part of my theory is R1b1b2a* (L23+) was taken west again to the Near East this time via the Oghuz migrations which occurred a lot more recently compared to the Celtic/Italic migrations, which may explain why it has not further developed as much in the Near East.
    Last edited by jalethewhale; 2012-04-09 at 20:26.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalethewhale View Post
    That's a really recently discovered marker that no one knows anything about. I don't know if Oghuz Turks are L584- or L584+. Apparently 23andme doesn't even pick it up. For all we know this mutation could have occurred in some populations during the last 600 years alone.
    There are L584+ men with GDs of 20+ between them at 67 STR.

    Edit: Also. 23andMe, I reckon, has not the slightest clue L584 exists. They are a few years behind, in some ways, when it comes to these things. Plus, we have the participation of folks from this forum, to thank, in part, for L405 (~L584).

    Please add your 23andMe Y chromosome file to Adriano Squecco's database


    Posted 2010-12-17, 20:01 | Report #16
    More success to report. From a post by Vince Vizachero:

    [I] want to point out some nice new results from 23andMe which point toward interesting developments.

    Since the last time we discussed it, there are many new L23+ L277+ L51- results. While we STILL do not have results from FTDNA for this marker, the primers appear to work so I hope soon it will be available. The next ISOGG tree update should contain R-L277 as a branch parallel to R-L51.

    For the longest time, 23andMe customer Chitsaz has sat with a private back mutation at rs9786602 (which is normally derived in all of P). Just today, FTDNA gave the name L405 to this SNP (rs9786602). They did this because in the past day we got two new 23andMe results from guys who are, like Chitsaz, L23+ L277- L51- L405-. This will be confusing, but it does appear that L23+ L405- will actually define a THIRD subclade of L23 parallel to both L51 and L277. Defining a clade based on a back mutation calls for a bit more caution than normal, so this one might not appear on ISOGG for a while. But it is an exciting development, and worth mentioning.

    Also, forgive me for adding a shameless plug for our project's general fund. We have MANY members who could use a STR or SNP upgrade, but who can't afford it or simply are not interested. But that data is very important in helping us make future discoveries. There are plenty of needy charities out there, but if you've got some disposable income earmarked for genetics and nothing to spend it on for yourself, consider throwing a little our way.

    Here's a tree based on the 23andMe results illustrating the situation there:
    http://vizachero.com/R1b1/R1b1b2Tree.pdf
    Last edited by Humanist; 2012-04-09 at 20:50.
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  8. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalethewhale View Post
    You didn't understand what I said. Of course they test positive for L23+, but they belong to far more advanced subclades of L23+ only found in Western Europe.
    Ok you're not getting it. The West European L23+ came from West Asia during the Neolithic age (There was no such thing as Oghuz Turks during this period). Since L23+ arrived to Europe from West Asia during the Neolithic age, that means L23+ existed in the Near East long before there was such thing as Oghuz migration which is a very recent migration.

    L23+ probably does exist in the Levant, but the major R1b lineage in Africa and the Levant is R1b1c and their subclades. L23+ in the Levant is most likely the result of the Ottoman presence in the Levant for 700 years.
    Read the above point, the Ottomans are peanuts when you look at the history of L23+ in the region.

    All studies point to West Asia or Southeast Europe as the origin of L23+, the Oghuz Turks have nothing to do with this.
    Y-DNA Ancestors
    Paternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> R2a*
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> J1*
    Maternal Grandmother's Y-DNA --> J2a4b*

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    Maternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> T1*
    Paternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> H*

  9. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    There are L584+ men with GDs of 20+ between them at 67 STR.
    I'm pretty certain that genetic distances of 20+ can occur in even less than 1000 years. Genetic distances have a lot more to do with genetic isolation and inbreeding in certain groups. The Kalash are a good example.

    Quote Originally Posted by birko19 View Post
    Ok you're not getting it. The West European L23+ came from West Asia during the Neolithic age (There was no such thing as Oghuz Turks during this period). Since L23+ arrived to Europe from West Asia during the Neolithic age, that means L23+ existed in the Near East long before there was such thing as Oghuz migration which is a very recent migration.



    Read the above point, the Ottomans are peanuts when you look at the history of L23+ in the region.

    All studies point to West Asia or Southeast Europe as the origin of L23+, the Oghuz Turks have nothing to do with this.
    It seems like you're not even reading my posts. Western European L23+ did not come from the Near East, it passed through the Near East but didn't leave any traces during its first migration.

    So let's recap... one L23+ migration west by Celts/Italics from Central Asia between 4000-5000 years ago which spawned sophisticated L23+ subclades found only in Western Europe today.

    Another more recent L23+ migration west by Oghuz Turks from Central Asia beginning approximately 1500 years ago. This expansion is responsible for all L23+ in Near East today (excluding Crusader L23+ subclades in the Levant).
    Last edited by jalethewhale; 2012-04-09 at 21:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalethewhale View Post
    It seems like you're not even reading my posts. Western European L23+ did not come from the Near East, it passed through the Near East but didn't leave any traces during its first migration.

    So let's recap... one L23+ migration west by Celts/Italics from Central Asia between 4000-5000 years ago which spawned sophisticated L23+ subclades found only in Western Europe today.

    Another more recent L23+ migration west by Oghuz Turks from Central Asia beginning approximately 1500 years ago. This expansion is responsible for all L23+ in Near East today (excluding Crusader L23+ subclades in the Levant).
    What I don't get is how you talk out of the air without providing any scientific sources.
    Y-DNA Ancestors
    Paternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> R2a*
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> J1*
    Maternal Grandmother's Y-DNA --> J2a4b*

    mtDNA Ancestors
    Maternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> T1*
    Paternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> H*

  11. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    There is a problem. You are trying to a progression from R-M73, and infer a Western migration by Turks, which in turn mutates into M269- L23.

    R1b1a1 (R-M73)

    R1b1a1 (2011 name) is defined by the presence of SNP marker M73. It has been found at generally low frequencies throughout central Eurasia,[21] but has been found with relatively high frequency among particular populations there including Hazaras in Pakistan (8/25 = 32%);[22] and Bashkirs in Bashkortostan (62/471 = 13.2%), 44 of these being found among the 80 tested Bashkirs of the Abzelilovsky District in the Republic of Bashkortostan (55.0%).[3] Four R-M73 men were also found in a 523-person study of Turkey,[4] and one person in a 168-person study of Crete.

    1]R-M73 is not to be found in any significant quantities in Eastern/Southern/Western/ Europe.

    2] L23+ R1b1b2a* is found in Europe in very small quantities. The earliest sample is 1180c.e.[ sample found in Church remains-U98VT-]which predates Oghuz confederation by 300 years.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aq_Qoyunlu.png

    3]L23+ R1b1b2a*Are Oghuz samples are L584- or L584+. This is important new snp marker..

    4]Even if you try and stretch your idea, you run into a road block.
    Upstream of R-M73 marker is R-P25[R1b1* is rare]. Which is even older than R-M73 marker.

    " 3 cases in the Ukraine, in a study of 322 people from the Dniester-Carpathian region, who were P25 positive, but M269 negative.[20]"

    "Cruciani et al. in the large 2010 study found 3 cases amongst 1173 Italians"

    "1 out of 328 West Asians and 1 out of 156"

    So from these numbers are we to conclude that the migration was actually reverse and that R1b1* and it's clades downstream originate from Europe?

    I don't know tbh. M73 is very much a mystery.

    1. It is either Turkish.
    2. Native to Central Asia.
    3. European,
    4. Something picked up by turks on their way to central asia from a third party.

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    M73 is obviously Turkic hg. But ofc many will say no, because as we all know, Turkics can have no hg and cant exist

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