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Thread: R1b-M732066 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by birko19 View Post
    Notice where he places R1b1b2a, this pretty much tells me this person wants to connect this lineage with steppe nomad Indo-Europeans.
    Probably. Some South and West Europeans have a hard time accepting R1b is West Asian.

    What about the M73 parts of this map? Do they seem accurate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Probably. Some South and West Europeans have a hard time accepting R1b is West Asian.

    What about the M73 parts of this map? Do they seem accurate?
    R1b may actually be of Proto-Tocharian/Celto/Italic origin since Asian R1b is mainly found in Turkic speaking regions formerly inhabited by Tocharians such as the Tocharian descended Uyghurs who have up to 80% of it. It was most likely brought to the Near East on its way to Europe by the Oghuz Turks and taken to Europe by the Celts/Italics. Tocharian, Celtic, and Italic are grouped in one language family which kind of explains the fact R1b is overall highest in Celtic and Italic speaking populations.

    Last edited by jalethewhale; 2012-04-05 at 22:33.

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    From here:

    The easterly prevalence of DYS393=12 R1b haplotypes may even reflect an affinity

    with other groups even further afield. According to "The Mummies of Urichi" by

    Elizabeth Wayland Barber, the Tocharian mummies discovered in the Tarim Basin

    of Western China not only resembled the tall, fair-haired Celts of Gaul. They also

    showed striking similarity in material culture, especially in their fondness for plaid

    woolen fabric, a universal Celtic trait. Barber also contends that these people may

    have been Tocharians, and that the Tocharians spoke an Indo-European tongue

    with a close if archaic similarity to the Celtic languages.

    Even beyond the possible history of the Celts in Asia, there is a long-standing tradition

    among many of British Celtic descent that the Celts originated in Scythia, and made their

    way westward across Europe to Britain. This thesis was famously propounded in the

    Declaration of Arbroath, and persists to this day.

    The current thinking is that the British Celts were, by and large, not Celts at all - but merely

    aborigines who acquired the Celtic language through cultural diffusion. Nevertheless, it is not

    unreasonable to assume that the Celtic language was brought to Britain by someone. Maybe

    those vectors of linguistic change also brought R1b haplotypes from the east.


    And from Wikipedia:

    The Indo-European language of the Tocharians was supplanted by the Turkic languages of the Uighur tribes about 800 CE.

    Protected by the Taklamakan Desert from steppe nomads, elements of Tocharian culture survived until the 7th century, with the arrival of Turkic immigrants from the collapsing Uyghur Khaganate of modern day Mongolia.[15]

    Area of Tocharian settlement:






    Areas of Celtic settlement:




    Areas of Italic settlement:





    High levels of R1b corresponding with all these areas:





    And the explanation for low levels of R1b in the Near East:
    In the 9th century, the Oghuz Turks from the Aral steppes drove the Pecheneg Turks of the Emba region and the River Ural toward the west. In the 10th century they inhabited the steppe of the rivers Sari-su, Turgai, and Emba to the north of Lake Balkhash of modern day Kazakhstan.[1] A clan of this nation, the Seljuks, embraced Islam and in the 11th century entered Persia, where they founded the Great Seljuk Empire. Similarly, in the 11th century a Tengriist Oghuz clan—referred to as Uzes or Torks in the Russian chronicles—overthrew Pecheneg supremacy in the Russian steppe. Harried by another Turkic horde, the Kipchaks—a branch of the Kimaks of the middle Irtysh or of the Ob—these Oghuz penetrated as far as the lower Danube, crossed it and invaded the Balkans, where they were either crushed[2] or struck down by an outbreak of plague, causing the survivors either to flee or to join the Byzantine imperial forces as mercenaries (1065).[3]



    Is anyone seeing this connection too?
    Last edited by jalethewhale; 2012-04-06 at 02:12.

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    jalethewhale, you're mixing languages with haplogroups which is not a valid assessment unless it's backed up by some serious ancient dna.
    Y-DNA Ancestors
    Paternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> R2a*
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> J1*
    Maternal Grandmother's Y-DNA --> J2a4b*

    mtDNA Ancestors
    Maternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> T1*
    Paternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> H*

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    Quote Originally Posted by birko19 View Post
    jalethewhale, you're mixing languages with haplogroups which is not a valid assessment unless it's backed up by some serious ancient dna.
    I know, but sometimes you have to wonder why some haplogroups fit so well with certain ethnolinguistic groups. For example R1a distribution fits pretty nicely with the Balto-Slavo-Germanic groups and the Indo-Iranian speaking peoples. This also makes me wonder whether the Balto-Slavo-Germanic and Indo-Iranian groups had a proto-group together. And I also think that proto-Indo-Europeans were an R group as a whole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalethewhale View Post
    I know, but sometimes you have to wonder why some haplogroups fit so well with certain ethnolinguistic groups. For example R1a fits quite well with the Balto-Slavo-Germanic groups and the Indo-Iranian groups.

    Which really makes me think that proto-Indo-Europeans were an R group as a whole.
    The only reason why R1a has a little better argument than R1b is because there has been ancient dna samples that tested positive for it.
    Y-DNA Ancestors
    Paternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> R2a*
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> J1*
    Maternal Grandmother's Y-DNA --> J2a4b*

    mtDNA Ancestors
    Maternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> T1*
    Paternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> H*

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    Quote Originally Posted by birko19 View Post
    The only reason why R1a has a little better argument than R1b is because there has been ancient dna samples that tested positive for it.
    Well it's obviously all in theory, but I don't see why the R1b hypothesis doesn't make sense. And I can assure you that the Oghuz Turkic line was R1b. They weren't Mongols who were C.

    Basically Turks came into existance when Tocharian R1b men interbred with Mongol women and semi-adopted and infused Mongol culture with their own resulting in a hybrid culture known today as 'Turkic'.
    Last edited by jalethewhale; 2012-04-06 at 02:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalethewhale View Post
    Well it's obviously all in theory, but I don't see why the R1b hypothesis doesn't make sense. And I can assure you that the Oghuz Turkic line was R1b. They weren't Mongols who were C.

    Basically Turks came into existance when Tocharian R1b men interbred with Mongol women and semi-adopted and infused Mongol culture with their own.
    I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but the Turkic R1b in Central Asia is not the same R1b lineage that exists in Europe, and the gap between them is bigger than the languages or Tocharians (Who were quite recent might I add).

    The Turks in Central Asia carry R1b1b1, this lineage does not exist in Europe. It's R1b1b2a and its subclades that dominate Western Europe. The latter is also quite common in the Middle East, in fact, R1b1b1 too exists in small amounts in the Middle East, this makes West Asia the middle point for R1b between Europe and Central Asia, and the migration likely started long before there was Tocharians, Celts, and what not.
    Y-DNA Ancestors
    Paternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> R2a*
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> J1*
    Maternal Grandmother's Y-DNA --> J2a4b*

    mtDNA Ancestors
    Maternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> T1*
    Paternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> H*

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    Quote Originally Posted by birko19 View Post
    I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but the Turkic R1b in Central Asia is not the same R1b lineage that exists in Europe, and the gap between them is bigger than the languages or Tocharians (Who were quite recent might I add).

    The Turks in Central Asia carry R1b1b1, this lineage does not exist in Europe. It's R1b1b2a and its subclades that dominate Western Europe. The latter is also quite common in the Middle East, in fact, R1b1b1 too exists in small amounts in the Middle East, this makes West Asia the middle point for R1b between Europe and Central Asia, and the migration likely started long before there was Tocharians, Celts, and what not.
    I know what you're saying but that's the evolution process. R1b basically kept evolving as these groups headed west. If you study R1b you'll see a pattern. I'm in no way doubting that the overall urhaiamat for "R" is somewhere near modern Armenia (which may also be the proto-Indo-European homeland), but what I'm saying is that R1b basically first came into existance somewhere in Central Asia (probably the Tarim basin) and began evolving during the migrations westward that probably took thousands and thousands of years... and at the same time their language also kept evolving from its proto-Tocharian-Italo-Celtic form. Since back then, there was no way these people could travel such long distances in any less time.

    What made their massive migration possible in the first place was their mastery of the equestrian lifestyle. Both Balto-Slavo-Germanic/Indo-Iranian R1a's and Tocharian-->"Turkic"-Italo-Celtic R1b's were masters of the horse. Basically wherever the proto "R" root of these two groups really was, was where they first mastered the horse allowing for the huge success of Indo-Europeans today.
    Last edited by jalethewhale; 2012-04-06 at 02:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalethewhale View Post
    I know what you're saying but that's the evolution process. R1b basically kept evolving as these groups headed west. If you study R1b you'll see a pattern. I'm in no way doubting that the overall urhaiamat for "R" is somewhere near modern Armenia (which may also be the proto-Indo-European homeland), but what I'm saying is that R1b basically first came into existance somewhere in Central Asia (probably the Tarim basin) and began evolving during the migrations westward that probably took thousands and thousands of years... and at the same time their language also kept evolving from its proto-Tocharian-Italo-Celtic form. Since back then, there was no way these people could travel such long distances in any less time.

    What made their massive migration possible in the first place was their mastery of the equestrian lifestyle. Both Balto-Slavo-Germanic/Indo-Iranian R1a's and Tocharian-->"Turkic"-Italo-Celtic R1b's were masters of the horse. Basically wherever the proto "R" root of these two groups really was, was where they first mastered the horse allowing for the huge success of Indo-Europeans today.
    The dates of these haplogroups don't support what you say.
    Y-DNA Ancestors
    Paternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> R2a*
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> J1*
    Maternal Grandmother's Y-DNA --> J2a4b*

    mtDNA Ancestors
    Maternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> T1*
    Paternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> H*

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