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Thread: R1b-M732066 days old

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by birko19 View Post
    The dates of these haplogroups don't support what you say.
    Well I'm not even aware of the dates. And what I'm saying doesn't really specify a date either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by birko19 View Post
    I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but the Turkic R1b in Central Asia is not the same R1b lineage that exists in Europe, and the gap between them is bigger than the languages or Tocharians (Who were quite recent might I add).

    The Turks in Central Asia carry R1b1b1, this lineage does not exist in Europe. It's R1b1b2a and its subclades that dominate Western Europe. The latter is also quite common in the Middle East, in fact, R1b1b1 too exists in small amounts in the Middle East, this makes West Asia the middle point for R1b between Europe and Central Asia, and the migration likely started long before there was Tocharians, Celts, and what not.
    I would hold off on calling R1b1b1 Tukic (and i do this too) before we know for sure it is and wasn't present in neolithic Central Asia or indo-iranian central asia.

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    Silesian (2012-04-06)

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    I would hold off on calling R1b1b1 Tukic (and i do this too) before we know for sure it is and wasn't present in neolithic Central Asia or indo-iranian central asia.
    I'm not calling it Turkic because I think it was Turkic, but rather to make the distinction between the R1b carried among Central Asian Turks and R1b carried by Europeans.
    Y-DNA Ancestors
    Paternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> R2a*
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> J1*
    Maternal Grandmother's Y-DNA --> J2a4b*

    mtDNA Ancestors
    Maternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> T1*
    Paternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> H*

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalethewhale View Post
    From here:





    And from Wikipedia:




    Area of Tocharian settlement:






    Areas of Celtic settlement:




    Areas of Italic settlement:





    High levels of R1b corresponding with all these areas:





    And the explanation for low levels of R1b in the Near East:





    Is anyone seeing this connection too?
    R1b>R1b1a2>R1b1a2a Three types found in Kazakhstan.

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults


    1]R1b*: Kurds southeastern Kazakhstan
    2]R1b1a2:Kit #86425 Khazakhstan
    3]R1b1a2a:Kit #133533 Khazakhstan/Kit# 172373 Khazakhstan

    Wiki:

    R1b* (that is R1b with no subsequent distinguishing SNP mutations) is extremely rare. The only population yet recorded with a definite significant proportion of R1b* are the Kurds of southeastern Kazakhstan with 13%.[7] Two cases were reported in a large study of Turkey.[4] In a study of Jordan it was found that no less than 20 out of all 146 men tested (13.7%), including most notably 20 out of 45 men tested from the Dead Sea area, were positive for M173 (R1) but negative for P25 and M269, mentioned above, as well as the R1a markers SRY10831.2 and M17, so they are either R1b* or R1a*.[15]

    Jordan and Southern Levant are spurious data, as shown by the study below on R1b in Jordan. Quote

    http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v5...jhg200565a.pdf

    "Africa. However, the lack of R1*-M173 in Somalia
    (Sanchez et al. 2005) and its presence in Jordan and
    Egypt points to the Levant as the alternative bridge of
    passage of R1*-M173 to Africa (Luis et al. 2004). All
    these results evidence the Levant as both a crossroad of
    migrations and a main focus of expansions."
    Last edited by Silesian; 2012-04-06 at 08:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by birko19 View Post
    I'm not calling it Turkic because I think it was Turkic, but rather to make the distinction between the R1b carried among Central Asian Turks and R1b carried by Europeans.
    But look at the M73 project.

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    Cluster A looks European. I'd say cluster B1 is Indo-Iranian(mostly tajiks and uzbeks-and even the uzbeks could be tajiks and they were recently indo-iranian speaking as well) and cluster B2 is Turkic.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-06 at 16:09 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    R1b>R1b1a2>R1b1a2a Three types found in Kazakhstan.

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults


    1]R1b*: Kurds southeastern Kazakhstan
    2]R1b1a2:Kit #86425 Khazakhstan
    3]R1b1a2a:Kit #133533 Khazakhstan/Kit# 172373 Khazakhstan

    Wiki:

    R1b* (that is R1b with no subsequent distinguishing SNP mutations) is extremely rare. The only population yet recorded with a definite significant proportion of R1b* are the Kurds of southeastern Kazakhstan with 13%.[7] Two cases were reported in a large study of Turkey.[4] In a study of Jordan it was found that no less than 20 out of all 146 men tested (13.7%), including most notably 20 out of 45 men tested from the Dead Sea area, were positive for M173 (R1) but negative for P25 and M269, mentioned above, as well as the R1a markers SRY10831.2 and M17, so they are either R1b* or R1a*.[15]

    Jordan and Southern Levant are spurious data, as shown by the study below on R1b in Jordan. Quote

    http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v5...jhg200565a.pdf

    "Africa. However, the lack of R1*-M173 in Somalia
    (Sanchez et al. 2005) and its presence in Jordan and
    Egypt points to the Levant as the alternative bridge of
    passage of R1*-M173 to Africa (Luis et al. 2004). All
    these results evidence the Levant as both a crossroad of
    migrations and a main focus of expansions."
    What would you say the source for each of the three types?

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    But look at the M73 project.

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    Cluster A looks European. I'd say cluster B1 is Indo-Iranian(mostly tajiks and uzbeks-and even the uzbeks could be tajiks and they were recently indo-iranian speaking as well) and cluster B2 is Turkic.
    The fact that I can almost count the European cluster in one hand tells you something.

    R1b1b1 in Europe is rare and likely a recent genetic flow from Central Asia, unlike R1b1b2 which was likely a Neolithic marker from West Asia.
    Y-DNA Ancestors
    Paternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> R2a*
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> J1*
    Maternal Grandmother's Y-DNA --> J2a4b*

    mtDNA Ancestors
    Maternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> T1*
    Paternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> H*

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    Quote Originally Posted by birko19 View Post
    The fact that I can almost count the European cluster in one hand tells you something.

    R1b1b1 in Europe is rare and likely a recent genetic flow from Central Asia, unlike R1b1b2 which was likely a Neolithic marker from West Asia.
    Maybe but it is strange that they are in their own cluster.Also strange that besides Kazakhstan Central Asian R1b-m73 is rare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Maybe but it is strange that they are in their own cluster.Also strange that besides Kazakhstan Central Asian R1b-m73 is rare.
    It's not strange, they probably come from the same line (One individual).
    Y-DNA Ancestors
    Paternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> R2a*
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> J1*
    Maternal Grandmother's Y-DNA --> J2a4b*

    mtDNA Ancestors
    Maternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> T1*
    Paternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> H*

  11. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    But look at the M73 project.

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    Cluster A looks European. I'd say cluster B1 is Indo-Iranian(mostly tajiks and uzbeks-and even the uzbeks could be tajiks and they were recently indo-iranian speaking as well) and cluster B2 is Turkic.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-06 at 16:09 ----------



    What would you say the source for each of the three types?

    The same theme keeps coming up, with regards to many clades of R1b:

    1]Armenians- Indigenous, 4000B.C.- elevated R1b,in older regions Syunik

    2]Talysh- Indigenous Iranic-elevated R1b

    3]Ossetians- Iranic- R1b

    4]Bashkirs- Turkic with Iranic component "rasogeneticheskih national and linguistic processes in the region led to the unity of the historical and biological evolution and interaction of the ancient Finno-Ugric and Indo-Iranian and Turkic peoples in the the region, culminating in the formation of the Bashkir people"
    http://soraman.livejournal.com/16422.html -elevated R1b

    5]Kurds of South Eastern Kazakhstan-Iranic- R1b

    6]Hazaras- [possible Iranic connection?]elevated R1b.
    Last edited by Silesian; 2012-04-06 at 19:49.

  12. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    The same theme keeps coming up, with regards to many clades of R1b:

    1]Armenians- Indigenous, 4000B.C.- elevated R1b,in older regions Syunik

    2]Talysh- Indigenous Iranic-elevated R1b

    3]Ossetians- Iranic- R1b


    4]Bashkirs- Turkic with Iranic component "rasogeneticheskih national and linguistic processes in the region led to the unity of the historical and biological evolution and interaction of the ancient Finno-Ugric and Indo-Iranian and Turkic peoples in the the region, culminating in the formation of the Bashkir people"
    http://soraman.livejournal.com/16422.html -elevated R1b

    5]Kurds of South Eastern Kazakhstan-Iranic- R1b

    6]Hazaras- [possible Iranic connection?]elevated R1b.

    I wouldn't call the R1b in any of those populations indeginious. They most likely came from Oghuz Turkic migrations. Particularly R1b1b2a in Assyrians, Armenians, and Talysh who are positive for the (L23+) most likely descend from the Qara Qoyunlu Turks:


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