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Thread: is Salsa Music an Offspring of Son Music, or is it its Own Genre?2732 days old

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    Default is Salsa Music an Offspring of Son Music, or is it its Own Genre?

    I ask because a lot of Puerto Ricans like to claim Salsa. They claim it was them who laid the foundation of it while Cubans claim Salsa was just Son music with an added flare.

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    There was Cuban Son and there was Puertorican Son, both were produced in parallel while the Cuban was much more popular and in a way had much more circulation. Even so, if you look at the members of La Sonora matanzera there were a significant amount of Puerto Ricans.

    Puertoricans and Nuyoricans started making Salsa afterwards in parallel due to their unsatisfaction with the lower pace of Son. Salsa was being made in Ponce and NYC by using the same components which were used to make Son which were Guaracha Española, Afro caribbean rythms which were actually produced sometime in Haiti, and a New influence of Jazz in the case of the NYC salsa, and a whole new musical arrangement in the case of Salsa de Ponce.

    It is true that many other peolple contributed like dominican Pacheco, and that Celia Cruz started doing salsa. What it is not said is that she actually realized Son was not selling and jumped on the band wagon of Salseros.

    Example of the great PR influence on Cuban Son (I mark the distinction because we had our own Son):
    Cantantes de la Sonora Matancera
    Nombre País de Nacimiento Número de Grabacione Años de Grabación
    Alberto Beltrán República Dominicana 8 1954-1955
    Alberto Pérez Cuba 4 1960
    Alfredito Valdés Cuba 2 1947-1948
    Bienvenido Granda Cuba 217 1944-1954
    Bienvenido León Cuba 1 1949
    Bobby Capó Puerto Rico 9 1952
    Carlos Argentino Argentina 72 1955-1959 / 1971
    Carlos Manuel Díaz "Caíto" Cuba 9 1944 / 1984
    Carmen Delia Dipiní Puerto Rico 6 1955
    Celia Cruz Cuba 188 1950-1965
    Celio González Cuba 103 1955-1959 / 1962-1965
    Chito Galindo Uruguay 2 1957
    Daniel Santos Puerto Rico 70 1948-1953
    Eladio Peguero "Yayo El Indio" Puerto Rico 44 1971-1994
    Elliot Romero Puerto Rico 10 1966
    Emilio Domínguez "El Jarocho" México 3 1961
    Estanislao Sureda "Laíto" Cuba 12 1954-1955
    Gladys Julio Colombia 2 1969
    Gloria Díaz Cuba 4 1952
    Hermanas Lago Cuba 2 1952
    Humberto Cané Cuba 2 1945
    Israel del Pino Cuba 2 1947
    Ismael Miranda Puerto Rico 8 1984
    Johnny López Puerto Rico 2 1957
    Jorge Maldonado Puerto Rico 11 1976-1981
    Justo Betancourt Cuba 18 1966-1970 / 1981
    Kary Infante Cuba 6 1969
    Leo Marini Argentina 48 1951-1953 / 1955-1958 / 1972
    Linda Leída Cuba 3 1968
    Manuel Licea "Puntillita" Cuba 1 1951
    Martha Jean Claude Haití 1 1952
    Máximo Barrientos Puerto Rico 7 1968
    Miguel de Gonzalo Cuba 6 1947-1948
    Miguelito Valdés Cuba 28 1951 / 1977
    Myrta Silva Puerto Rico 4 1949-1952
    Nelson Pinedo Colombia 50 1953-1958
    Olga Chorens Cuba 3 1954
    Pepe Reyes Cuba 4 1952
    Raúl del Castillo Cuba 2 1952
    Reynaldo Hierrezuelo "Rey Caney" Cuba 4 1958
    Rodolfo Hoyos Cuba 5 1954
    Tony Álvarez Cuba 3 1954
    Tony Díaz Cuba 9 1969
    Toña "La Negra" México 4 1974
    Vicentico Valdés Cuba 16 1953-1958
    Víctor Piñero Venezuela 4 1958
    Welfo Gutiérrez Cuba 20 1973-1976
    Willy Rodríguez "El Baby" Cuba 21 1960-1965

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-26 at 11:35 ----------

    I already killed a thread like this a long long time ago

    Please refer to this link in order to understand the genesis of the Genre thouroughly.

    http://www.proyectosalonhogar.com/En...rada/Salsa.htm

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-26 at 11:43 ----------

    If one is to compare is genesis one must also compare it to Reggaeton. People say we also like to claim Reggaeton but that it is actually Panamanian. It is the same as in the cuban case and salsa.

    Allow me:

    Reggaeton before being raggeton was plain old ´´reggae´´ in both Panama and P.R. (not to be confesed with the actual reggae of Bob Marley and the Wailers or Peter Tosh). What was being heard and produced in both countries was actually a higly adapted to spanish version of reggaemuffin (analogic to SON). Until that ´´reggae´´ in P.R. became underground which was an adapted version using the same base of Jamaican reggaemuffin. Panamanians did the same but with a different style.

    In a couple of years underground turned into Reggaeton, ironically (parallel with Salsa) the input of dominican PR hybrids (forst wave of domis to Santurce: DJ Negro is of Domi descent) and PR islanders who stated makingtheir own beats and bass for their songs. That was the first thing to be called Reggaeton. Now it has once again evolved into something else entirely and it is just understood as Musica Urbana with many sub genres: DEM BOW, Perreo, Electro Ton, Vieja Escuela (return to the underground style; cursing and sexist), etc.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-26 at 11:46 ----------

    An excerpt:

    LOS PROTAGONISTAS DE LA SALSA
    ¿De donde son los músicos y cantantes que le dieron prestigio al nuevo sonido de los 70's?

    En Nueva York: Charlie Palmieri, Willie Colón y Héctor Lavoe, Ray Barreto, Tito Puente, Richie Ray y Bobby Cruz, Eddie Palmieri, Larry Harlow y Ismael Miranda, Típica 73, Blades, Pacheco y Pete el Conde o Ismael Quintana.

    En Puerto Rico: Cortijo y su Combo, Gran Combo, Tommy Olivencia, Bobby Valentín, Willie Rosario, Andy Montañez, Roberto Roena y sus Apollo Sound, Frankie Ruiz, Marvin Santiago, Lalo Rodríguez o Ismael Rivera.
    Nueva York - Puerto Rico produjo : El 100% de los cantantes y el 70% de los músicos originales en 1971 al crearse la Fania son Boricuas. 15 integrantes eran boricuas, 3 norteamericanos, 2 dominicanos y 1 solo cubano.

    El 26 de agosto de 1971 el sello Fania, disquero lanzó su agrupación Fania All Star, ante una multitud que eufórica disfrutó de la presentación. El productor del evento lo fueron Jerry Massucci y Ralph Mercado (dueño del club nocturno Chetah).

    Johnny Pacheco fue el director musical. Los cantantes fueron Héctor Lavoe, Ismael Miranda, Pete ‘El Conde’ Rodríguez, Adalberto Santiago, Bobby Cruz, Santos Colón y Cheo Feliciano. Ray Barreto en las congas, Roberto Roena en el bongo y Nicky Marrero en los timbales, en el 1er trombón Barry Rogers, Reinaldo Jorge y Willie Colón en los trombones 2 y 3. Roberto Rodríguez, Héctor Zarzuela ‘Bomberito’ y Larry Spencer en las trompetas; el piano estuvo a cargo de Larry Harlow y Richie Ray, mientras que Bobby Valentín se ocupó del bajo y Yomo Toro del cuatro puertorriqueño

    How can Salsa not be Boricua when out of 100 Salsa artist more than 80 were Boricuas. We made it sell and made it famous. And quite frankly any modern day boricua like me could easily get lost dancing Son as I am used to another rythm which is Salsa.

    There are plenty of quotes from Cuban musicologists themselves and cubans artists setting the record straight by saying Salsa is not Cuban.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-26 at 11:47 ----------

    Respuesta de Gloria Estefan: Bueno, la Salsa definitivamente lo hizo. Cuando pienso en la música cubana, yo no pienso en "La Salsa". Pienso en la Rumba, Son Montuno y cosas así. Pienso que la verdadera Salsa, cuando se habla de sus sonidos y lo que la gente llama Salsa, es de Puerto Rico. Gloria Estefan - San Juan Star, entrevista de octubre 15,1995:



    ---------- Post added 2012-03-26 at 11:48 ----------

    NOTA:
    Deben tener en cuenta que para los 30s y 40s, los cantantes primordiales de la Sonora Matancera, fueron Myrta Silva, Daniel Santos y Bobby Capó, de Puerto Rico, antes de Celia Cruz.


    ---------- Post added 2012-03-26 at 11:52 ----------

    “La salsa es un producto cultural para estúpidos”, dijo Dámaso Pérez Prado (creador del mambo) “Sólo a los tontos les puede gustar ese mamarracho de música”.- Esa molestia creó y causó resentimientos que persisten hoy día, ya que habian pasado a la historia viejos ritmos para darle paso a un nuevo sonido mas agil.

    "La gente quería salsa brava, ver al cantante entregándose de verdad, oír un buen solo, escuchar letras que le hablen de la vida, todo lo que la salsa le dio desde un principio" Adalberto Álvarez, músico cubano, Orquesta Son 14 (Entrevista con Leonardo Padura, 1992)

    La música cubana es música cubana, «la salsa es otra cosa» Israel López Cachao, músico cubano


    Los puertorriqueños se apoderaron de la salsa; lo cierto es que los boricuas siempre han constituido mayoría en los barrios latinos de Nueva York y en las orquestas. En cuanto a Cuba, pienso que a los músicos de la isla se les fue el tren entre 1970 y 1982, llegaron muy tarde a un banquete al cual no habían sido invitados y tampoco irrumpieron posteriormente con el esperado torrente de renovaciones vitales. Tony Evora musicologo cubano, del libro, Música Cubana los últimos 50 años editado en 2003 por Alianza Editorial.

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    ddbrainer, thanks for your input, but I wouldn't say that. Son music began in Oreinte, Cuba. La Sonora matanzera came years after the original Soneros. Puerto Ricans did not have anything to do with the development of Son music.


    The development of Salsa lays attribution to Arsenio Rodriguez who fled Cuba to get operations for his blindness. He left his group, which he founded with Miguelito Cuni and others. Son Montuno is pretty much Salsa with an added tone.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZZwZNXxxVE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT1ht...eature=related

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    Dont take my words out of context. I said we contributed and thus had an input.

    Son Montuno is pretty much Salsa with an added tone.
    It is not. Son montuno is Son montuno. If you want to override Cuban musicologists and even Gloria Stefan´s statements then you are welcome to state an opinion not a fact.

    If you had taken your time to read instead of pretending to read to proceed to state your opinion which is not a fact. You would have read that 9 out the 12 musicos in Arsenio Rodriguez Band were Puertoricans.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-26 at 12:41 ----------

    BTW those to link you posted of heavily influence by Guaracha Son are nothing like Salsa. If we made it our own it is because we took it very far away from that. Note how I am only stating what Cuban musicologists themselves have stated. I dont think you are neither an authority like those Cuban musicologist are neither is it enough to make an opinion when you are being presented with more than a few facts stated by non puertoricas.

    If you read more carefull you will see that Puertoricans and Cubans were Guarachando simultaneously both in PR and CUBA as the matrix of the music was Spanish Guaracha which reahced both places with an african flair. Cubans made Son we loved it and took influences from Jazz, Bomba y Plena which are OURS and made Salsa.

    Ponte serio general y no opines meramente.

    If any of this facts are not enough to make you accept what is a fact then I have no toher choice than to leave you with your opinion and with the reminder that we were, beyond the facts stated, the ones who gave it a distinction and made it famous.


    You dont have to agree with me. You have to understand that you disagree with Cultured non opinionated Cuban Musicologists. If that is not enough name the top 10 most important Salseros in history and tell me how many are not Puertorican.

    Ponte serio.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbbrainer View Post
    Dont take my words out of context. I said we contributed and thus had an input.



    It is not. Son montuno is Son montuno. If you want to override Cuban musicologists and even Gloria Stefan´s statements then you are welcome to state an opinion not a fact.

    If you had taken your time to read instead of pretending to read to proceed to state your opinion which is not a fact. You would have read that 9 out the 12 musicos in Arsenio Rodriguez Band were Puertoricans.
    Arsenio Rodriguez is from the Son Montuno school. Notice how Salsa took off after Castro's take over. Cuban exiles contributed in the development of Salsa in NYC.

    Also take not that Cha Cha Cha also played a role in Salsa's development. Cha Cha Cha is a Cuban creation of course.

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    En pleno 1920, Rafael Hernández se ubica residiendo en Cuba, país en el que este permaneció durante cinco años y fue allí donde compuso varias de sus mas famosas canciones. En la mas grande de las Antillas, el hijo de Aguadilla, que nació el en el barrio Tamarindo el 24 de octubre de 1891, dirigió, entre otras, la orquesta del Teatro Fausto de La Habana, una de las mas importantes de la época.

    En esa isla, dominada por el son montuno y la guaracha, el compositor boricua dejó su indeleble huella. Fue allí, precisamente, donde el versado compositor exploró arreglos musicales con trompetas y bongós en un tratamiento armónico especial que sentó las bases para el desarrollo de lo que son los conjuntos modernos, 20 años antes de experimentarlo el cubano Arsenio Rodríguez. Allí creó "Cachita", la rumba mas famosa del mundo y en la que establece su tesis de que "la rumba caliente es mejor que el Son".

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    Guaracha Son did not include the same exact instruments that was in Son Montuno.


    I'm aware of Puerto Rico's musical genius. However, to deny Salsa not being Son is laughable.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-26 at 16:48 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by dbbrainer View Post
    En pleno 1920, Rafael Hernández se ubica residiendo en Cuba, país en el que este permaneció durante cinco años y fue allí donde compuso varias de sus mas famosas canciones. En la mas grande de las Antillas, el hijo de Aguadilla, que nació el en el barrio Tamarindo el 24 de octubre de 1891, dirigió, entre otras, la orquesta del Teatro Fausto de La Habana, una de las mas importantes de la época.

    En esa isla, dominada por el son montuno y la guaracha, el compositor boricua dejó su indeleble huella. Fue allí, precisamente, donde el versado compositor exploró arreglos musicales con trompetas y bongós en un tratamiento armónico especial que sentó las bases para el desarrollo de lo que son los conjuntos modernos, 20 años antes de experimentarlo el cubano Arsenio Rodríguez. Allí creó "Cachita", la rumba mas famosa del mundo y en la que establece su tesis de que "la rumba caliente es mejor que el Son".
    Puerto Rican composers were some of the best.

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    Sir nobody is denying the cuban influence. It is like saying Reggaeton had not jamaican influence when it took reggaemuffin and made it something different. What is being said is that it took influcen from that but it also took influence from our own music because we were making guaracha and SON too. What is also being said is that Puertoricans contributed to SOn. Read above. And that Son in turn was produced in Orientr FROM HAITIAN derived rythms and beats. making the whole influence for Salsa wholely Caribbean while the innovation and distinction towards another sound was Puertorican.


    I require of you to count and compare how many cubans were present alongside Puertoricans making salsa. More than 85% were Puertoricans. fact.

    What was being done in NYC was already being done in Ponce and with a different style than in nYC. Fact.


    i will quote again:

    Los puertorriqueños se apoderaron de la salsa; lo cierto es que los boricuas siempre han constituido mayoría en los barrios latinos de Nueva York y en las orquestas. En cuanto a Cuba, pienso que a los músicos de la isla se les fue el tren entre 1970 y 1982, llegaron muy tarde a un banquete al cual no habían sido invitados y tampoco irrumpieron posteriormente con el esperado torrente de renovaciones vitales. Tony Evora musicologo cubano, del libro, Música Cubana los últimos 50 años editado en 2003 por Alianza Editorial.

    La música cubana es música cubana, «la salsa es otra cosa» Israel López Cachao, músico cubano

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-26 at 12:55 ----------

    However, to deny Salsa not being Son is laughable.
    Wow What a Sin. Salsa is not Son. Let me ask you this and answer. Does Son have Bomba and Plena incorporated? No. fact.

    Does Son have Jazz incorporated? No.

    Salsa is not Son. I do not know how to dance Son but I do know how to Dance Salsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbbrainer View Post
    Sir nobody is denying the cuban influence. It is like saying Reggaeton had not jamaican influence when it took reggaemuffin and made it something different. What is being said is that it took influcen from that but it also took influence from our own music because we were making guaracha and SON too. What is also being said is that Puertoricans contributed to SOn. Read above. And that Son in turn was produced in Orientr FROM HAITIAN derived rythms and beats. making the whole influence for Salsa wholely Caribbean while the innovation and distinction towards another sound was Puertorican.


    I require of you to count and compare how many cubans were present alongside Puertoricans making salsa. More than 85% were Puertoricans. fact.

    What was being done in NYC was already being done in Ponce and with a different style than in nYC. Fact.


    i will quote again:

    Los puertorriqueños se apoderaron de la salsa; lo cierto es que los boricuas siempre han constituido mayoría en los barrios latinos de Nueva York y en las orquestas. En cuanto a Cuba, pienso que a los músicos de la isla se les fue el tren entre 1970 y 1982, llegaron muy tarde a un banquete al cual no habían sido invitados y tampoco irrumpieron posteriormente con el esperado torrente de renovaciones vitales. Tony Evora musicologo cubano, del libro, Música Cubana los últimos 50 años editado en 2003 por Alianza Editorial.

    La música cubana es música cubana, «la salsa es otra cosa» Israel López Cachao, músico cubano

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-26 at 12:55 ----------



    Wow What a Sin. Salsa is not Son. Let me ask you this and answer. Does Son have Bomba and Plena incorporated? No. fact.

    Does Son have Jazz incorporated? No.

    Salsa is not Son. I do not know how to dance Son but I do know how to Dance Salsa.

    Makes sense

    But most sources say Cubans brought Salsa to NYC. It's not hard to believe it though since Salsa sounds like a faster tone of Son music.

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    Those sources are wrong. Namely because Salsa is a word first used in a venezuelan radio show. Cubans took Son, Chachacha and their music to New York and Puertoricans turned that music with thier own influences, Puertorican Guaracha, or Caribbean Guaracha proper as it was really Spanish from SPAIN, which is the matrix for SON, BOMBA, Plena and American Jazz. In that regard african american had as much of an influence.

    Parallel to this a distinct Salsa was already being made in Ponce.

    Nobody is denying cuban influence. It had cuban influence just as much as it had Puertorican and american influence. What is the point? Puertoricans on both sides, NYC, and the Island made it their own just like Reggaeton.

    And what music is not created that way? we would have to go back to Haiti to explain Son before Cubans innovated and made it theirs. We would have to go back to Spain to listen to their old Guracha before BOTH PR and Cuba caribbeanized it. We would have to back to Africa to understand how Haitian rythms got to be Haitian before influencing and inspiring Cubans with their own influences.

    The Point? Le dimos nuestras propias influencia y nuestros propios toques y la hicimos como NADIE la hizo y la hicimos famoso y se La vendimos al mundo. Celia Cruz cuaght on pretty quick when she realized it was big $$$ and even went on to recor with la Sonora Ponceña.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-26 at 13:18 ----------

    Cubans DID NOT tale salsa to NYC they took SON. If you really want to contradict musicologist (cubans) and gloria estefan herself who said:

    Respuesta de Gloria Estefan: Bueno, la Salsa definitivamente lo hizo. Cuando pienso en la música cubana, yo no pienso en "La Salsa". Pienso en la Rumba, Son Montuno y cosas así. Pienso que la verdadera Salsa, cuando se habla de sus sonidos y lo que la gente llama Salsa, es de Puerto Rico. Gloria Estefan - San Juan Star, entrevista de octubre 15,1995:

    Then you are missing the obvious historical fact. Salsa was not to the liking of Cubans at first (look for the quote by Cuban musicologist themselves) BECAUSE it was different than Son. They caught up afterwards and cahught up pretty late. By the time they did we had already put the BIG PR label on it.

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