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View Poll Results: What kind of R1a frequency will the aDNA from Yamnaya turn out as?

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  • Various haplogroups (R1a, R1b, J2 etc.); Dienekes' POV

    5 20.00%
  • R1a-420*, R1a1-SRY1532.2*, R1a1a-M17* and subclades of R-M417+ (EliasAlucard's POV)

    8 32.00%
  • R-Z283+, R-Z284+, R-Z280+ and no R-Z93+ (Polako's POV)

    7 28.00%
  • None of the above

    5 20.00%
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Thread: R-M17, to be or not to be proto-Indo-European?1989 days old

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    Ancient DNA trumps contemporary data, which turned out to be misleading in almost every single case. And this is what the ancient DNA is showing so far:

    • A lot of R1a in Mesolithic, Neolithic, Eneolithic and Bronze Age populations from Eastern Europe.
    • Zero R1a in Mesolithic, Neolithic and Chalcolithic Iran.




    It's pretty clear R1a-Z93 came from Eastern Europe, you're just arguing against the data here.
    And the argument here is that the sample size of ancient dna from south asia and even iran pales in comparison to the ammount of samples analyzed from ancient eastern europe. So no, its not pretty clear it all came from eastern europe with the current evidence.

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  3. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones View Post
    And the argument here is that the sample size of ancient dna from south asia and even iran pales in comparison to the ammount of samples analyzed from ancient eastern europe. So no, its not pretty clear it all came from eastern europe with the current evidence.
    You're using the same excuse as our local Afrocentrists, much like them that's because the results bother you. But that's above the point really, we already have 12 samples from Iran dating from the Mesolithic to the Chalcolithic period and no R1a in sight so far, you'd expect it to show up at least once if Iran truly were R1a's cradle but no, zero R1a so far. In comparison, R1a showed up as soon as we got the first Mesolithic samples from Eastern Europe (from Russia this time), I don't remember you using that excuse back then.
    Last edited by Semitic Duwa; 2017-07-29 at 19:19.

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  5. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    You're using the same excuse as our local Afrocentrists, much like them that's because the results bother you. But that's above the point really, we already have 12 samples from Iran dating from the Mesolithic to the Chalcolithic period and no R1a in sight so far, you'd expect it to show up at least once if Iran truly were R1a's cradle but no, zero R1a so far. In comparison, R1a showed up as soon as we got the first Mesolithic samples from Eastern Europe (from Russia this time), I don't remember you using that excuse back then.
    I looked a really long time trying to find the sample size of ancient dna from europe vs south asia and central asia/iran. I remember it being posted on the eurogenes blog but i couldnt find it. Regardless i remember the disparity being ridiculous so thats my main argument why things cannot be concluded yet. Your measly 12 sample size from iran does not compare to the european sample size which if i recall correctly is in the hundreds. So dont compare me with afrocentrists, of course i am biased and want R1a to be native, but that is no different from guys like Polako being very biased wanting his pontic caspian theory to be true. Regardless of what bias you have, this topic is not settled yet. And since we are talking about a relatively close to historical event, more evidence is needed. regardless as i have said, it doesnt really matter because nothing done by indians can be claimed by europeans anyway because by the time they settled in south asia if the migration theory is true, by that point they where already mixed with other groups on the way. Also ancient yamnaya samples where not pure either, they had "southern" mixture which they havent completely identified yet. So its not confirmed that those R1a in yamnaya is native to the region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones View Post
    I looked a really long time trying to find the sample size of ancient dna from europe vs south asia and central asia/iran. I remember it being posted on the eurogenes blog but i couldnt find it. Regardless i remember the disparity being ridiculous so thats my main argument why things cannot be concluded yet. Your measly 12 sample size from iran does not compare to the european sample size which if i recall correctly is in the hundreds. So dont compare me with afrocentrists, of course i am biased and want R1a to be native, but that is no different from guys like Polako being very biased wanting his pontic caspian theory to be true. Regardless of what bias you have, this topic is not settled yet. And since we are talking about a relatively close to historical event, more evidence is needed. regardless as i have said, it doesnt really matter because nothing done by indians can be claimed by europeans anyway because by the time they settled in south asia if the migration theory is true, by that point they where already mixed with other groups on the way. Also ancient yamnaya samples where not pure either, they had "southern" mixture which they havent completely identified yet. So its not confirmed that those R1a in yamnaya is native to the region.
    Doesn't matter really, these 12 samples represent roughly 5,000 years of Iranian genetic prehistory, throughout this period not only is R1a absent but the steppe component (as well as the later addition of EEF ancestry to this component which characterises Corded Ware and Sintashta) with which R1 lineages are strongly correlated is thoroughly absent as well. Coupled with Z93's TMRCA estimates dating back 4,700 yBP and its presence in Sintashta, the only valid scenario places the introduction of this marker in the Indian subcontinent and on the Iranian plateau during the Middle Bronze Age. In other words, I have no idea what you're hoping for. Even if we had 500 ancient samples from Iran, the overall picture would remain more or less the same.

    Like I said, you're arguing against the data.
    Last edited by Semitic Duwa; 2017-07-29 at 21:56.

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  8. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones View Post
    So dont compare me with afrocentrists, of course i am biased and want R1a to be native, but that is no different from guys like Polako being very biased wanting his pontic caspian theory to be true. Regardless of what bias you have, this topic is not settled yet. And since we are talking about a relatively close to historical event, more evidence is needed. regardless as i have said, it doesnt really matter because nothing done by indians can be claimed by europeans anyway because by the time they settled in south asia if the migration theory is true, by that point they where already mixed with other groups on the way. Also ancient yamnaya samples where not pure either, they had "southern" mixture which they havent completely identified yet. So its not confirmed that those R1a in yamnaya is native to the region.
    @Polako has his bias like everyone else, however, he does understand the scientific data, and he adapts accordingly and changes his mind based on what the most recent accumulated data says; that's how science works: knowledge forces you to change your mind.

    In the past, like back in the early 2010s, Polako used to argue that R1a was native to Poland, for good reasons, because Poland had like the highest R1a diversity in the world (although, interestingly, little to no R1a-Z93). But all this was before ancient DNA became a big thing, and before they began publishing genome data from the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

    You won't be seeing Polako arguing that R1a is native to Poland these days, because he's not foolish to argue against the data

    And if you think there'll be any ancient DNA that shows R1a-M17 native to India or Iran, don't keep your hopes up, is all I can say. R1a and R1b came to eastern Europe from Siberia, very likely before either of them reached Iran/India. Actually, R1 most likely hadn't mutated to R1a and R1b at the time it reached eastern Europe.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2017-07-29 at 22:45.
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