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View Poll Results: What kind of R1a frequency will the aDNA from Yamnaya turn out as?

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  • Various haplogroups (R1a, R1b, J2 etc.); Dienekes' POV

    5 20.00%
  • R1a-420*, R1a1-SRY1532.2*, R1a1a-M17* and subclades of R-M417+ (EliasAlucard's POV)

    8 32.00%
  • R-Z283+, R-Z284+, R-Z280+ and no R-Z93+ (Polako's POV)

    7 28.00%
  • None of the above

    5 20.00%
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Thread: R-M17, to be or not to be proto-Indo-European?2042 days old

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalethewhale View Post
    I think the differences between Slavic R1a and Aryan R1a are enough evidence for us to conclude that these two groups were already isolated/split apart from eachother during neolithic times.

    And I think the entire R clad was responsible for proto-Indo-European not just R1a branches.
    R1a is the only thing that has to do with proto Indo-European. R1b is a West Asian lineage and R2 is a South Central Asian one. Just deal with it.

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    All haplogroups originate in West Asia. Afterall, Noah lived there too.

    Anyway, R1a was most likely proto-Aryan/Balto-Slavic while R1b was Proto-Tocharian/Italo-Celtic.

    That's my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalethewhale View Post
    All haplogroups originate in West Asia. Afterall, Noah lived there too.

    Anyway, R1a was most likely proto-Aryan/Balto-Slavic while R1b was Proto-Tocharian/Italo-Celtic.

    That's my opinion.
    No evidence for R1b and Tocharian, Only R1b in Central asia is M73 and trace amounts of M269. M73 is either native to central asia or picked up by turks on their way to central asia.

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    What mtdnas would be native to Indo-Iranian tribes and not picked up by interaction with the BMAC, finno ugric speakers or mongloids/ proto altaic speakers?

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    In my opinion the PIE urheimat was in Northwest-Central Asia. It's the only place where R1a, R1b, and R2 are all found together.

    And you know my opinions about R1b. The R1b1b* line was of Tocharian/Italo-Celtic origin (later also Turkic) in East Central Asia after the early PIE R1b's migrated there from West Central Asia.

    And no evidence of Tocharian R1b? Your kidding me right? Because Uyghurs are very high in R1b. And so are other Tocharian descendants such as Oghuz Turks, Bashkirs, etc.

    There's also absolutely no evidence that shows R1a is more PIE than R1b or even R2. I'm sorry if the reality doesn't fit too well with your Slavic and Indian nationalist fantasies but that's not my problem anyway.
    Last edited by jalethewhale; 2012-04-17 at 01:22.

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    And I might add that sampling from the Indian subcontinent has been minimal. There was one WTY sample (L657), and that is the extent of testing. I predict that any upcoming testing on South Asian tribal R1a's(especially central and south Indian) is going to reveal a lot(or confuse everybody). Three possible scenarios:
    1) everyone is Z93+ (and more subgroups are found)
    2) some Z93+ and some Z283+
    3) a good percentage of samples that are both Z93- and Z283-.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalethewhale View Post
    In my opinion the PIE urheimat was in Northwest-Central Asia. It's the only place where R1a, R1b, and R2 are all found together.

    And you know my opinions about R1b. The R1b1b* line was of Tocharian/Italo-Celtic origin (later also Turkic) in East Central Asia after the early PIE R1b's migrated there from West Central Asia.

    And no evidence of Tocharian R1b? Your kidding me right? Because Uyghurs are very high in R1b. And so are other Tocharian descendants such as Oghuz Turks, Bashkirs, etc.

    There's also absolutely no evidence that shows R1a is more PIE than R1b or even R2. I'm sorry if the reality doesn't fit too well with your Slavic and Indian nationalist fantasies but that's not my problem anyway.

    No. I am sorry the truth doesn't fit into your Iranian nationalist dreams.

    Lol@ using Uyghurs as an example. They aren't pure Tocharian descendants so who cares if they have R1b? All the Tarim mummies were R1a. All the Scythians R1a. This line of R1b was probably already present in Central Asia before Tocharians or was picked up by Turko-Mongols on their way to Central asia and then given to the Uyghurs. Thanks for the laugh.

    No wonder Birko, Humanist, Elias al make fun of you. R1b is native to West Asia and here you are trying to connect it with Indo-Europeans and Turks.

    Lol @ Indian and Slavic nationalism.

    -I'm not Indian.
    -I have stated Indo-Iranians came from Central Asia. Why would an Indian nationalist say his country has been invaded by outsiders?
    -I have stated Aryans were Indo-Iranian speakers who once roamed Central Asia and their R1a was Z93+ unlike Slavs. Why would a slavic nationalist say this?

    You are right its not your problem anyways. A moron like you has a shit ton of intellectual problems that he should get fixed.

    But keep being delusional dumbass.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-17 at 00:09 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by soulblighter View Post
    And I might add that sampling from the Indian subcontinent has been minimal. There was one WTY sample (L657), and that is the extent of testing. I predict that any upcoming testing on South Asian tribal R1a's(especially central and south Indian) is going to reveal a lot(or confuse everybody). Three possible scenarios:
    1) everyone is Z93+ (and more subgroups are found)
    2) some Z93+ and some Z283+
    3) a good percentage of samples that are both Z93- and Z283-.
    Wouldn't Z280+ be more likely than Z283+?

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    Nonetheless, I can't really disagree with the dismissal of the R-M17/Indo-European theory. R-M17 is simply too populous in South Asia to be the genetic legacy of "Indo-Europeans": (i) under an elite-dominance model, its frequency is way too high (compared to well-attested examples of elite dominance, e.g., Hungary or Turkey where the genetic legacy of the elite element is in the minority), (ii) under a folk migration model, it is difficult to understand why a hypothetical migrating Indo-European people would have such an overwhelming influence in the region while at the same time hardly influencing at all other densely occupied agricultural landscapes of the Eurasian steppe periphery
    ^ This is simply how it is, both small scale elite dominance and large scale folk migration can't begin to explain the high frequency R1a1 in southasia. no simple migration can easily march over the mountainous landscape of afghanistan region(like its a simple walk in the park)and then replace such a densely populated northwest indian region at that time period. Northwest indians weren't just large-scale agriculturalist but one of the rare few urban cultures of that time.

    the only model we have historically speaking that can cut a population in half is the spread of plagues like the black death in europe and new-world natives dying off. And invading indo-europeans would not have any military advantage either since early horses weren't used for riding in warfare like it was later on.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-17 at 00:22 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    ^^ Just because R-Z93+ is carried by non-Europeans today, that doesn't necessarily imply the original Z93 mutation carrier was non-European, and subclades such as R-Z283+ are probably too young but more importantly, too exclusive to regional populations to count as the original PIE marker.

    I see no good reason to exclude R-Z93+ from the PIE source population. It would complicate the entire Indo-European theory if some branches of R1a were carried by non-Indo-European speakers, and it also implies that if R-Z93+ males were Indo-Europeanised by R-Z283+ then other subclades of R-M17 could have been non-IE speakers as well.
    its pretty naive to think that that all Z280+/Z283+ belong to PIE source populations, just like today there should have been many non-Indo-European carrying it. R1a doesn't automatically = PIE

    I believe the Yamnaians are going to have some R1a*, R1a1* a bit higher of R1a1a*
    I believe the Yamna majority will be carrying Haplogroup I2
    Last edited by Reality Check; 2012-04-17 at 02:26.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Wouldn't Z280+ be more likely than Z283+?
    yes, that is what I meant. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Lol @ Indian and Slavic nationalism.

    -I'm not Indian.
    -I have stated Indo-Iranians came from Central Asia. Why would an Indian nationalist say his country has been invaded by outsiders?
    -I have stated Aryans were Indo-Iranian speakers who once roamed Central Asia and their R1a was Z93+ unlike Slavs. Why would a slavic nationalist say this?

    You are right its not your problem anyways. A moron like you has a shit ton of intellectual problems that he should get fixed.

    But keep being delusional dumbass.
    It's very obvious why some Indians and Slavs think R1a is PIE so don't get your panties in a bunch when I call you out for your nationalistic fantasies.

    Last edited by jalethewhale; 2012-04-17 at 02:43.

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