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View Poll Results: What kind of R1a frequency will the aDNA from Yamnaya turn out as?

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  • Various haplogroups (R1a, R1b, J2 etc.); Dienekes' POV

    5 20.00%
  • R1a-420*, R1a1-SRY1532.2*, R1a1a-M17* and subclades of R-M417+ (EliasAlucard's POV)

    8 32.00%
  • R-Z283+, R-Z284+, R-Z280+ and no R-Z93+ (Polako's POV)

    7 28.00%
  • None of the above

    5 20.00%
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Thread: R-M17, to be or not to be proto-Indo-European?2042 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalethewhale View Post
    It's very obvious why some Indians and Slavs think R1a is PIE so don't get your panties in a bunch when I call you out for your nationalistic fantasies.

    Aww did I upset you ? Stop being a sensitive wimp making accusations without any proof? You truly are a moron.

    By your logic I could easily say its obvious why some Iranians deny R1a and PIE's connection.

    Of course R1a's connection to PIE is accepted by most Western Europeans as well who have almost no R1a and are mostly R1b.


    The only one who is nationalistic here is you. You are the moron taking credit for iranian speakers from Central Asia colonizing South Asia. As if they were from iran or something and not from the andronovo complex. I have never said Indo-Iranian heritage is exclusively belongs to my ethnic group. It belongs to NW Indians/Pakistanis/Afghans/Tajiks/Iranians/Kurds and Central Asians. You on the other hand have claimed otherwise even though Iranians have the least Indo-Iranian admixture out of those groups.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-17 at 01:03 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
    ^ This is simply how it is, both small scale elite dominance and large scale folk migration can't begin to explain the high frequency R1a1 in southasia. no simple migration can easily march over the mountainous landscape of afghanistan region(like its a simple walk in the park)and then replace such a densely populated northwest indian region at that time period. Northwest indians weren't just large-scale agriculturalist but one of the rare few urban cultures of that time.

    the only model we have historically speaking that can cut a population in half is the spread of plagues like the black death in europe and new-world natives dying off. And invading indo-europeans would not have any military advantage either since early horses weren't used for riding in warfare like it was later on.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-17 at 00:22 ----------



    its pretty naive to think that that all Z280+/Z283+ belong to PIE source populations, just like today there should have been many non-Indo-European carrying it. R1a doesn't automatically = PIE



    I believe the Yamna majority will be carrying Haplogroup I2
    Stop being ridiculous. I2? Must be why only one I2 has been found in South-Central Asia and is most likely the result of BMAC-Tripoyle interactions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    Nah, I don't think R1a-Z93 will prove to be part of the proto-Indo-European package.
    R-Z93+ is very consistently an Indo-Iranian marker, as it exists amongst both Indians and Iranians in significant frequencies, and since these populations don't seem to have any other kind of R1a, until proven otherwise, the most logical conclusion would be that R-Z93+ spread proto-Indo-Iranian languages to Iran and India.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    It was a later addition in Western or Central Asia.
    Later from where, and from what group?

    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    The proto and early Scythians will come back Z280+, Z282+, or Z283+. Same as the Corded Ware from Eulau.
    If so, then the Scythians were not an Iranic people. Or maybe a parent population to the proto-Aryans, or maybe the Scythians later mixed with other Indo-Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    Where did you get this from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasishta View Post
    Thus, my question is, given the patriarchal workings of most Eurasian societies, the Indo-Europeans certainly withstanding even to a large extent today (for instance, a lineal marker I am familiar with - Gotra, in traditional upper-caste Hindu society, which broadly refers to people who are descendants in a supposedly unbroken male line from a common male ancestor), how is it that Asiatic Indo-European speakers are largely Z93+, when R1a1a, thus far?
    Asiatic Indo-European speakers (i.e., Iranians/Indians) are largely R-Z93+ because that's the R1a subclade they inherited from their proto-Indo-European ancestors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasishta View Post
    If the paternal lineages of the purported proto-Indo-Europeans did not make it into groups like the Indo-Iranians, should we assume that culturally/linguistically Indo-Europeanized Z93+ individuals assimilated Indo-European females into their fold, perhaps as a symbol of marital ties and friendship between the semi-nomadic Indo-Europeans and themselves? If so, what are the mtDNA Haplogroups we should be looking for as signals of this phenomenon?
    The paternal ancestry of the proto-Indo-Europeans made it into Indo-Iranians, and the result of that, we can see in the elevated R-Z93+ frequencies. However, the mtDNA of the proto-Indo-Europeans in Indo-Iranians, not so much. The same phenomenon can be seen in for example the white South Africans, whose males initially mixed with local Negroid women because they didn't have enough Dutch women. In their case though, they continued to import more Dutch women later on, and that kept the Negroid admixture in Boers at a minimum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasishta View Post
    As for the poll, I am open to most theories regarding R1a1a, but have my disagreements with both Dienekes and Elias;
    - Dienekes says;
    But, Dienekes fails to note that the autosomal DNA results of present day Indo-Iranian speaking groups in the geographic area encompassing West, Central-South and South-Asia does in fact corroborate precisely with an elite dominance scenario in line with the Kurgan hypothesis.
    Not only that, the "north European" admixture in Indians and Iranians seems to be at about the same frequency as the Turkic admixture in Anatolians, and the Siberian admixture in Finns (somewhere around 6-7%). Of course, Dienekes is too anti-intellectual to take notice of this, because his focus is on the haplogroup frequency, and some weird made up law of his that too high haplogroup frequency somehow can't be an elite dominance strategy. In reality though, it wasn't so much elite dominance as it was Indo-Iranian males mixing with local women.

    Moreover, populations back then were smaller, and so it was much easier back then to dramatically increase the frequency of R1a in India as opposed to now, take say if the British tried to spread their R1b haplogroup in India.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasishta View Post
    - I disagree with Elias when he asserts that all R1a1a in South-Asia is an artifact of the spread of Indo-European languages in the reason. This proposition seems a little far-fetched in my humble opinion given it's populousness in the region - it would be more realistic to attribute only some of the numerous R1a1a individuals to the advent of Vedic civilization.
    Which R1a1a is this some? It's not far-fetched at all, and all it says is that male descendants of the proto-Indo-Europeans had a lot of reproductive success in India, and given how their culture is so influential in India, it's not surprising to see high frequencies of R1a in India.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasishta View Post
    It seems unrealistic to suggest that a semi-nomadic population would have had that much of an impact on an already populous farming populace that pre-existed in the region much before them.
    Well they weren't totally nomadic. Moreover, proto-Indo-European descendants had an enormous impact on other farming parts of Europe for example, such as Greece and Italy.

    Moreover, Hinduism has preserved many elements of proto-Indo-European culture better than Europeans did. But on the other hand, Europeans preserved the genepool of the proto-Indo-Europeans better than Indians and Iranians did, and this is much in part because the proto-Indo-Europeans came from Europe, so when they mixed with other Europeans, the genetic differences between the PIE tribe and other non-IE tribes were not as huge as between Aryans and Dasa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasishta View Post
    Thus, it'd have been more appropriate if the poll was multiple-choice.
    What do you suggest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drago View Post
    Which study do you mean, to be published soon?
    The invasion of the steppe link in this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    How do we know if all of the Northern European is Indo-European or even Indo-Iranian?
    Because Indians and Iranians though certainly low frequencies of a north European component, have a higher frequency of the northern European component than Assyrians or Andamanese have. And Poles in turn, had a higher Indian component than for example Scandinavians and Spaniards had in McDonald's early BGA tests from what I can remember.

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Some could be linked to altaic nomads in the area and other to pre IE hunter-gatherers that DMXX mentioned?
    No, that's nonsense, especially anything as early as hunter-gatherers. Why would Altaic nomads have a north European component?

    Besides, the north European component is too evenly distributed; it's not random and it's found at 6-7% in northern Indians, Persians and Kurds.

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Some of it could also be Tocharian or recent historical ancestry.
    Highly doubtful. It's too evenly distributed to be recent random north European ancestors.

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    I agree with Elias. I find it odd that Z280+/Z283+ males spread the language to Z93+ carriers without leaving much or any of their lineages. Non Z93+ R1a is only found in Kazakhs and Uzbeks and how do we know that isn't some sort of proto Slavic or Slavic introduction? And no way to know if the Z93+ in West Asia isn't the result of numerous and expansive Persian empires.
    Actually, R-Z93+ in Arabs most probably comes from the Sassanid Empire:




    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    ^ I think there was a pre-Indo-European cline in R1a stretching all the way from Eastern Europe to West and Central Asia.
    If there was a pre-proto-Indo-European cline in R1a, then R-Z93+ is way too recent to represent that cline. More like, R1a1* should represent that pre-PIE cline.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    The early Indo-Europeans mostly entered Central Asia via the Volga-Ural, and started picking up R1a-Z93 by the bushel. But they also entered West Asia along the Caspian coast, where there wasn't as much R1a-Z93 at the time. That's why I think we're now seeing Z280 in Turks, Caucasians and Arabs, but loads of R1a-Z93 in Indo-Iranians.
    It could be for other reasons, and the Hittites/Luwians/Lycians are good candidates for R-Z280 in "Turks", and so are the proto-Armenians and the ancient Greeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    Give it some time though, and you'll definitely see Z280 in Central Asia, and maybe even South Central Asia. I'm sure of it.
    Well it's always a possibility. Time will tell. But the fact that R-Z93 is found all the way from Kurds and Persians to Indians, that's very telling and no doubt makes Z93 the main proto-Aryan mutation. Of course, it can't be ruled out that the proto-Aryans had a few other R-M17 mutations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    But the question I can't answer, is when the North European autosomal component came to Pakistan and India. Was it with the pre-Indo-European R1a? With the early Indo-Iranians? Or with the Scythians?

    Maybe all three? We just have to wait and see what proper tests of South and South Central Asia show, and not some half-arsed studies that just look for R1a-M458.
    The north European autosomal component came to India with R-Z93+ and I see no reason to assume otherwise. You have this component at around 6-7% in Kurds, Persians and Indians, and these populations are all R-Z93+. Which also suggests R-Z93+ was initially north European. The Scythians had nothing to do with the north European component in these modern Indo-Iranian populations, unless the Scythians were R-Z93+ (which you doubt; I personally won't be surprised if Scythians come back as R-Z93+).

    Quote Originally Posted by jalethewhale View Post
    I think the differences between Slavic R1a and Aryan R1a are enough evidence for us to conclude that these two groups were already isolated/split apart from eachother during neolithic times.
    lol, dumbassery galore? Neolithic times?

    Quote Originally Posted by jalethewhale View Post
    And I think the entire R clad was responsible for proto-Indo-European not just R1a branches.
    This, of course, is an excellent example why you can't be taken seriously. Anyone who believes the proto-Indo-Europeans were anything other than R1a (such as R1b and so on) has a slippery slope agenda. The proto-Indo-Europeans most certainly, were not R2, and until we see any R1b and R2 aDNA in Yamnaya, that will remain a non-negotiable fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
    ^ This is simply how it is, both small scale elite dominance and large scale folk migration can't begin to explain the high frequency R1a1 in southasia. no simple migration can easily march over the mountainous landscape of afghanistan region(like its a simple walk in the park)and then replace such a densely populated northwest indian region at that time period. Northwest indians weren't just large-scale agriculturalist but one of the rare few urban cultures of that time.

    the only model we have historically speaking that can cut a population in half is the spread of plagues like the black death in europe and new-world natives dying off. And invading indo-europeans would not have any military advantage either since early horses weren't used for riding in warfare like it was later on.
    Indo-Iranian settlement in Iran and India was mainly carried out by R1a males, hence the high frequency but low SNP variation of R1a in India/Iran. And these R1a males were highly successful amongst the brown ladies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
    its pretty naive to think that that all Z280+/Z283+ belong to PIE source populations
    The PIE source population probably had some Z280+ and Z283+ (or these mutations mutated later on in Europe), but they were mainly R-M417+ and it's from R-M417+ that was the main split in Europe and Asia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
    just like today there should have been many non-Indo-European carrying it.
    No evidence to assume that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
    R1a doesn't automatically = PIE
    No evidence for that, and yes, R1a very much automatically means Indo-European, or traces of an Indo-European ancestor. And that goes for all R-M17+ and its subclades. R1a* and R1a1* can be discussed, but R1a1a* and its subclades = Indo-European.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
    I believe the Yamna majority will be carrying Haplogroup I2
    That's nonsensical, because Y-DNA IJ lived in south-west of the Black Sea, not north of the Black Sea. It's a possibility the Yamnaya population will have a few I2 as they had connections with the Cucuteni-Tripolye culture, and this culture probably was I2, but that the majority of the Yamnaya population would be I2, there's no reason to assume that.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2012-04-17 at 06:34.
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Where did you get this from?
    From the guy who runs the R1a1a subclades project. He suspects that Scythians carried the so called "Sarmats" subclade of R1a1, which is Z280+.

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    Anyway if R1a1a was PIE we should see a lot more of it in Iran/Central Asia than somewhere like India. Just proves it to be a baseless theory.

    However going along with what Reality Check said, it should be noted that high frequencies of I are found in Northern Iran which is quite near to the BMAC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalethewhale View Post
    Elias does the same thing I do with the maps. Made me lol
    Please don't compare me with an anti-intellectual like yourself, okay baba?

    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    From the guy who runs the R1a1a subclades project. He suspects that Scythians carried the so called "Sarmats" subclade of R1a1, which is Z280+.
    His speculation is not conclusive scientific evidence.
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Focus of the topic is not Scythians, but if R-M17 is proto-Indo-European or not, and what Y-DNA the Yamnaya study will give us. And to clarify: this thread is not a generic PIE urheimat discussion, and it's placed in the Y-DNA section which means that the focus of discussion is on the Y-DNA, not urheimats.

    //mod
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2012-04-17 at 06:40.
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    I made a map showing the different migrations of R-M17 and subclades through Eurasia :

    Sorry for the bad quality



    P.S sorry for my bad english

    So basically , M17 and M417 appeared in Eastern Europe (North of the Black Sea) , then M417 will spread to the east (Central Asia and Caspian Sea) and to the west (Central and Western Europe), the migration to the west was very small. Among the Ra1a1* in western Europe will appear L664. R1a1a1* at the same time will continue to spread into Central and south Asia. Maybe from those Asian R1a1a1* ,Z93 will appear somewhere between modern Iran and Pakistan and will spread into the Indian sub-continent and the Middle-East. Z283 will appear among eastern european R1a1a1* and some of those Z283 will spread into central europe and Scandinavia. Among the scandinavian Z283, Z284 will appear. M458 and Z280 are typical eastern european subclades. Middle-eastern Z93 will spread into eastern Europe with the neolithic farmer I guess.

    Does that makes sense ?

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    I suspect quite a few surprising YDNA results given enough samples. Any idea how many results there will be?

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    Okay, so let me summarise the POVs here:

    1) Dienekes: Anatolianist supporter of the PIE urheimat, therefore, he's trying to find an alternative scenario that somehow disconnects the proto-Indo-Europeans from R-M17 (because R-M17 doesn't speak in favour of the Anatolianist nonsense). It's good that Dienekes is trying to find alternative explanations, but at this point, he's being more anti-scientific and nonsensical than rational, and basically doing his damnedest to be wrong about everything Indo-European related. Way too agenda driven to be taken seriously.

    2) Elias: my POV is very simple, and parsimonious, per Occam's razor: all R-M17/R-M198 descendants are descended from the original proto-Indo-European tribe, which was predominantly and possibly entirely R-M17+ and perhaps also had some older ancestral mutations of R-M17+, such as R-M420*.

    3) Polako: Trying to associate the proto-Indo-Europeans with the R1a haplotype that's closest to central-eastern Europe (such as R-Z280+), which is fine, but this leads to a certain exclusion of other R1a subclades that came out of the original urheimat as well, and these haplogroups, such as R-Z93+, are associated with a small but existing north European component in Indo-Iranians. It is therefore much more logical to conclude that R-Z93+ spread this north European component to Indians/Iranians. If we go by Polako's POV, that R-Z93+ was not part of the proto-Indo-European crew, this POV requires special pleading and only complicates the entire R-M17 = PIE theory. Because that calls into question if other haplotypes such as R-L664+ are proto-Indo-European? Polako's POV also calls into question whether R-M17+ itself was initially proto-Indo-European, if one of its subclades was part of a "pre-Indo-European cline".
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2012-04-17 at 09:55. Reason: clarify
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    So far the hypothesis that R1a1=IE is consistent with the Steppe origin of IE model: one group of Steppe R1a1 (Z-283) colonizes forested zone in the North-West and one group of Steppe R1a1 (Z-93) colonizes the mountainous zone in the South East. Both groups separate early and have little contact later. This explains the general lack of other European haplogroups in South Asia and lack of South Asian haplogroups in Europe. In this model Yamna groups have to be pre-Z283 and pre-Z93. Otherwise the hypothesis will have problems with explaining the general lack of Z93 in Europe and lack of Z283 in South Asia. Scythians and Sarmatians groups can be anything probably as they represent much later phase of the IE evolution connected to the mounted warfare.

    EDIT: The problem I can see already is that ancestral forms of R1a1 deviate more towards Western Europe than Ukraine, but maybe this is just a sampling bias (plus a problem of multiple population replacements in the Steppe region).
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2012-04-17 at 11:18.

  13. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Wojewoda For This Useful Post:

    EliasAlucard (2012-04-17), Vasishta (2012-04-20)

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