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View Poll Results: What kind of R1a frequency will the aDNA from Yamnaya turn out as?

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  • Various haplogroups (R1a, R1b, J2 etc.); Dienekes' POV

    5 20.00%
  • R1a-420*, R1a1-SRY1532.2*, R1a1a-M17* and subclades of R-M417+ (EliasAlucard's POV)

    8 32.00%
  • R-Z283+, R-Z284+, R-Z280+ and no R-Z93+ (Polako's POV)

    7 28.00%
  • None of the above

    5 20.00%
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Thread: R-M17, to be or not to be proto-Indo-European?2044 days old

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    Default R-M17, to be or not to be proto-Indo-European?

    Dienekes was delighted over the Haber et al. 2012 paper:

    R1a1a-M17 diversity declines toward the Pontic-Caspian steppe where the mid-Holocene R1a1a7-M458 sublineage is dominant [46]. R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan, suggesting that R1a1a-M17 does not support, as previously thought [47], expansions from the Pontic Steppe [3], bringing the Indo-European languages to Central Asia and India.
    Source: Afghanistan's Ethnic Groups Share a Y-Chromosomal Heritage Structured by Historical Events

    Trust Dienekes to take advantage of the nonsensical statement above for his Anatolianist agenda:

    It is a real shame that the newer markers available within the most prominent R-M17 haplogroup were not tested:

    ...

    Nonetheless, I can't really disagree with the dismissal of the R-M17/Indo-European theory. R-M17 is simply too populous in South Asia to be the genetic legacy of "Indo-Europeans": (i) under an elite-dominance model, its frequency is way too high (compared to well-attested examples of elite dominance, e.g., Hungary or Turkey where the genetic legacy of the elite element is in the minority), (ii) under a folk migration model, it is difficult to understand why a hypothetical migrating Indo-European people would have such an overwhelming influence in the region while at the same time hardly influencing at all other densely occupied agricultural landscapes of the Eurasian steppe periphery; moreover, no autosomal signal corresponding to a migration from eastern Europe to South Asia really exists -the main cline of variation links South with West Asia, not Europe- and the small signal that does exist does not really correspond to observed levels of R-M17.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/03...osomes-of.html

    ^^ If you ever wanted a case of anti-logic, Dienekes is your man. In no way, does the Haber et al. paper disprove the scientific theory (as opposed to unverified hypothesis which is the Anatholian hypothesis) that R-M17 is proto-Indo-European male marker. The problem with Dienekes is that he's assuming IE languages were spread to India by elite dominance, and that all elite dominance situations are identical processes.

    Polako has also discussed this nonsensical comment:

    The European-specific R1a1a SNP that scientists should be looking for in Central Asia, in order to track the movements of the early Indo-Europeans, is Z280. This marker has a much wider distribution in Central and Eastern Europe than M458, and perhaps that was also the case during the relevant time frames - the Chalcolithic and early Bronze Age? Indeed, it has already been found in native Central Asian samples, both in private and academic tests, and the latter results will hopefully be published soon.

    To widen the net, they should also test for Z283, which is upstream to both M458 and Z280, and the Scandinavian-specific Z284. Its present distribution hints that it might have been a common marker within the late Neolithic Corded Ware cultural horizon of the North European Plain, which is usually thought of as an early Indo-European culture. If that was the case, then in theory, based on archeological data, it might have traveled with representatives of the Eastern Corded Ware, the Abashevo culture, past the Urals and as far as East Central Asia.
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.se/2012/03...reference.html

    I don't see the problem with R-Z93? Seriously, that's just as much an Indo-European descended subclade of R-M17 as R-Z280, R-Z283 etc. The proto-Indo-Europeans were not any specific subclade of R-Z283 or anything like that. They were R-M17 and possibly R-M417, but R-M17* was the dominant clade of the proto-Indo-Europeans. It would be a lot more difficult to explain how R-Z93 initially spoke some non-Indo-European language and somehow they were Indo-Europeanised later on by their "lost brethren" or something like that.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2012-04-17 at 06:17. Reason: clarify
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Okay, so how many of you predict that both Dienekes and Polako—especially Dienekes—are going to be wrong once they publish the results of the upcoming Yamnaya study?

    INVASION OF THE STEPPE

    Me personally, I believe the Yamnaians are going to have some R1a*, R1a1* a bit higher of R1a1a*, significant frequencies of R-M17+ and a lot of R1a-M417+ (I wouldn't be surprised if they'll find early varieties of R1a-Z283+ and R1a-Z93+ too). The reason for this is simple: R-M17 is the dominant mutation of modern R1a distribution, and so, while they probably had some R1a1* and R1a* in the urheimat, it was R-M17 that took the baton with the spread of Indo-European languages, so theoretically, R-M17 should have had the upper hand in the urheimat as well.

    Poll added. Poll will be closed in a week or less, because the study is soon to be published, so that you won't be able to cheat the poll by voting on the right POV, so make sure to vote soon.

    //mod
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2012-04-16 at 12:55. Reason: clarify
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Nah, I don't think R1a-Z93 will prove to be part of the proto-Indo-European package. It was a later addition in Western or Central Asia.

    The proto and early Scythians will come back Z280+, Z282+, or Z283+. Same as the Corded Ware from Eulau.

    Last edited by Polako; 2012-04-16 at 16:17.

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    ^^ Just because R-Z93+ is carried by non-Europeans today, that doesn't necessarily imply the original Z93 mutation carrier was non-European, and subclades such as R-Z283+ are probably too young but more importantly, too exclusive to regional populations to count as the original PIE marker.

    I see no good reason to exclude R-Z93+ from the PIE source population. It would complicate the entire Indo-European theory if some branches of R1a were carried by non-Indo-European speakers, and it also implies that if R-Z93+ males were Indo-Europeanised by R-Z283+ then other subclades of R-M17 could have been non-IE speakers as well.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2012-04-16 at 22:52.
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Polako, I posed a question to you in another thread that you said you'd give your two-cents on a while ago but that seemed to have slipped your mind. Never mind, as I'll post it here again. You initially said;
    Ancient DNA from the steppe suggests strongly that a movement of people from Europe (similar to today's Balto-Slavs) north of the Caspian to the Altai took place, and these were the Andronovo folks. So we know they were high in R1a1a, but what kind of R1a1a? Was it Z93+ or Z283+? Did the West Asians also carry R1a1a? If so, was it Z93+?
    I responded;
    Under your model, I don't think it would be wrong to speculate that the West-Central Asian group that were to become the proto Indo-Iranians were Indo-Europeanized by R1a1a (Z283+) individuals, and were very high in R1a1a - Z93+ themselves. Thus, the proto Indo-European influence was more autosomal as opposed to strong inheritance of Z283+ paternal lineages. Although I find this a bit odd given the strong patriarchal workings of Indo-European society. In light of the autosomal DNA data, looking at the data for Uttar Pradesh (the most populous state in India) from the recent Metspalu et al. paper, it looks like the possible Indo-European genetic signature has persisted even among the generic, non-upper caste populace of Indo-Aryan speaking parts of India in the form of 2.4% to 6.2% Northern European admixture among, for instance, U.P's agricultural and other peasant castes. As per the current phylogeny, the Z93 and Z283 SNPs are both parallel to L664, i.e, the three are not derived from each other. At present though, European R1a1a seems to be more diverse than Asian R1a1a. One problem we have here is the the lack of sufficient samples from South Asia. Once we have more samples the picture might well change?
    In lieu of the statement about North-European centered autosomal components and their distribution in Eurasia, DMXX of the Vaedhya blog has the following to say as a summary of your Eurogenes intra-North Euro ADMIXTURE analysis;
    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX
    • North Sea and South Baltic accompany one another at similar frequencies across much of Asia, especially in populations with an Indo-Iranian-speaking heritage (observe the ~0.8-1:1 ratio among Kurds, Iranians, the Turkmen, Uzbeks, Tajiks, east Uttar-Pradesh Brahmins and Kshatriyas and Kyrgyz as examples of this). It is interesting to note that, of the two, only the North Sea component is readily present in East-Central Asians. The only other likely migration path along this trajectory is that of the proto-Tocharians, who (under the Eurasian steppe theory) split off from the Proto-Indo-European homeland several millennia prior to the Proto-Indo-Iranians that eventually formed the Andronovo archaeological horizon from Sintashta/Pit Grave (E Kuz'mina, The Origin of the Indo-Iranians, pg.451). Perhaps this near-solitary North Sea component within the Altaians, Mongolians and Uyghurs is attributed to early speakers of Tocharian? Perhaps the elevated presence of the North Sea component in South-Central Asia (Jatts, Pathans, Kyrgyz) is a relic of the Kushans, nomads supposedly a part of the Yuezhi confederacy, who may have been Tocharian speakers themselves?
    • One curious phenomenon is the similar West European-North Sea-Northeast European component proportions across the Turkmen, Uzbeks, Kyrgyz, Pathans, Uttar Pradesh Brahmins, Altaians and the Uyghur. Whether this can be substantiated in any way, or whether it is simply an anomalous association predicated by non-uniform and varying sample sizes, prevents a firm conclusion from being made.
    Thus, my question is, given the patriarchal workings of most Eurasian societies, the Indo-Europeans certainly withstanding even to a large extent today (for instance, a lineal marker I am familiar with - Gotra, in traditional upper-caste Hindu society, which broadly refers to people who are descendants in a supposedly unbroken male line from a common male ancestor), how is it that Asiatic Indo-European speakers are largely Z93+, when R1a1a, thus far? If the paternal lineages of the purported proto-Indo-Europeans did not make it into groups like the Indo-Iranians, should we assume that culturally/linguistically Indo-Europeanized Z93+ individuals assimilated Indo-European females into their fold, perhaps as a symbol of marital ties and friendship between the semi-nomadic Indo-Europeans and themselves? If so, what are the mtDNA Haplogroups we should be looking for as signals of this phenomenon?

    As for the poll, I am open to most theories regarding R1a1a, but have my disagreements with both Dienekes and Elias;
    - Dienekes says;
    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes
    ..no autosomal signal corresponding to a migration from eastern Europe to South Asia really exists -the main cline of variation links South with West Asia, not Europe- and the small signal that does exist does not really correspond to observed levels of R-M17."
    But, Dienekes fails to note that the autosomal DNA results of present day Indo-Iranian speaking groups in the geographic area encompassing West, Central-South and South-Asia does in fact corroborate precisely with an elite dominance scenario in line with the Kurgan hypothesis. If his evidence/support for the Neolithic Anatolia hypothesis for the dispersal of Indo-Europeans per Colin Renfrew from a genetic basis is based on his inferred Caucasus component's presence among South-Asian populations in his K12a and K12b ADMIXTURE runs, then that too doesn't particularly 'work' for South-Asia either. K12a-K12b fractions for the North_European and Caucasus fractions for South and South-Central Asian populations and individual participants;
    Indeed, the highlight here is the consistent signal of around ~15% North-European (modal in Lithuanians) in the Pakistani Turi Pashtuns (HGDP), individual Punjabi/Kashmiri participants (Dodecad) and the Metspalu et al upper caste Hindus (Brahmin and Kshatriya) from Uttar Pradesh. What's even more notable here is that many of non-upper caste, Bhojpuri-speaking groups from eastern Uttar Pradesh from the Metspalu et al. study exhibit the same component in the range of 2-6%. Indeed, that was my very point a few months ago, when Dienekes unexpectedly chose to aggressively attack my criticisms (which were for the most part polite and cordial at that) instead of the plethora of criticisms of his ideas that have been made across fora, including this one, and continue to be made so. Why he chose to address my criticisms in specific, I can only wonder. And, unfortunately, that blog-post has been used as something of an attack against my intentions and motive by some of the miscreant elements here in a few instances. But, back on topic, the only ones who do not exhibit the same trend with regards to the North-European component marginally or substantially being more than a given group/individual's Caucasus percentages are the easter-Iranic Balochis and Makranis (south-east Baluch), who are known to be outliers in a South-Asian context either way, who are more Caucasus than Northern-European. Their descent from actual North-West Iranian speakers is questionable, considering that they, much like the Dravidian-speaking Brahui who inhabit the same region, tend to find themselves largely assigned to a region-specific component that are likely composites of various West Eurasian influences that have converged on Balochistan, and then drifted. In light of the genetic similarity, it wouldn't be wrong to speculate whether most Balochis of the region simply underwent a linguistic shift and were previously Brahui-speaking.

    - I disagree with Elias when he asserts that all R1a1a in South-Asia is an artifact of the spread of Indo-European languages in the reason. This proposition seems a little far-fetched in my humble opinion given it's populousness in the region - it would be more realistic to attribute only some of the numerous R1a1a individuals to the advent of Vedic civilization. It seems unrealistic to suggest that a semi-nomadic population would have had that much of an impact on an already populous farming populace that pre-existed in the region much before them.

    Thus, it'd have been more appropriate if the poll was multiple-choice.
    Last edited by Vasishta; 2012-04-16 at 15:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post

    Poll added. Poll will be closed in a week or less, because the study is soon to be published, so that you won't be able to cheat the poll by voting on the right POV, so make sure to vote soon.

    //mod
    Which study do you mean, to be published soon?

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    How do we know if all of the Northern European is Indo-European or even Indo-Iranian? Some could be linked to altaic nomads in the area and other to pre IE hunter-gatherers that DMXX mentioned? Some of it could also be Tocharian or recent historical ancestry.

    I agree with Elias. I find it odd that Z280+/Z283+ males spread the language to Z93+ carriers without leaving much or any of their lineages. Non Z93+ R1a is only found in Kazakhs and Uzbeks and how do we know that isn't some sort of proto Slavic or Slavic introduction? And no way to know if the Z93+ in West Asia isn't the result of numerous and expansive Persian empires.

    I'm open to different theories. More testing might reveal non Z93+ R1a in modern Indo-Iranians at a small frequency but its odd that a West Asian haplogroup is more common in South Asia and Central Asia than West Asia and the highest frequencies in West Asia are among iranian speaking groups.

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    ^ I think there was a pre-Indo-European cline in R1a stretching all the way from Eastern Europe to West and Central Asia.

    The early Indo-Europeans mostly entered Central Asia via the Volga-Ural, and started picking up R1a-Z93 by the bushel. But they also entered West Asia along the Caspian coast, where there wasn't as much R1a-Z93 at the time. That's why I think we're now seeing Z280 in Turks, Caucasians and Arabs, but loads of R1a-Z93 in Indo-Iranians.

    Give it some time though, and you'll definitely see Z280 in Central Asia, and maybe even South Central Asia. I'm sure of it.

    But the question I can't answer, is when the North European autosomal component came to Pakistan and India. Was it with the pre-Indo-European R1a? With the early Indo-Iranians? Or with the Scythians?

    Maybe all three? We just have to wait and see what proper tests of South and South Central Asia show, and not some half-arsed studies that just look for R1a-M458.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    ^ I think there was a pre-Indo-European cline in R1a stretching all the way from Eastern Europe to West and Central Asia.

    The early Indo-Europeans mostly entered Central Asia via the Volga-Ural, and started picking up R1a-Z93 by the bushel. But they also entered West Asia along the Caspian coast, where there wasn't as much R1a-Z93 at the time. That's why I think we're now seeing Z280 in Turks, Caucasians and Arabs, but loads of R1a-Z93 in Indo-Iranians.

    Give it some time though, and you'll definitely see Z280 in Central Asia, and maybe even South Central Asia. I'm sure of it.

    But the question I can't answer, is when the North European autosomal component came to Pakistan and India. Was it with the pre-Indo-European R1a? With the early Indo-Iranians? Or with the Scythians?

    Maybe all three? We just have to wait and see what proper tests of South and South Central Asia show, and not some half-arsed studies that just look for R1a-M458.
    Probably all three imo.

    If you see Z280+ in Central Asia you'll see it in South Central Asia. Tajikistan is Central Asia and many Uzbek are actually Tajiks lying about their identity to escape discrimination from Uzbeks and previously Russians.

    And it was only a while ago that Central Asia(at least Turkmenistan, SW Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan) were all East Iranian speaking.

    I just feel like Z280 should have popped up in at least one sample. However, I will wait. It is also possible Z93+'s elevated frequencies is a result of drift and Z280+ lines died out. No way to look into that is there?

    Since North Atlantic>blatic are you think Z93+ is associated with north atlantic or is that associated with R1b-m269 because that wouldn't make sense for indo-iranians most of whom lack M269.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-16 at 17:31 ----------

    Can we tell if Altaic/Finno-ugric(uralic)/Siberian nomads contributed to it in indo-iranians as well by bringing it in a mixed mongoloid/northern European form?

    and tocharians are also an option.

    What studies are being done? And what study was Elias referring to ? Why haven't they tested Andronovo yet?
    Last edited by newtoboard; 2012-04-16 at 19:32.

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    I think the differences between Slavic R1a and Aryan R1a are enough evidence for us to conclude that these two groups were already isolated/split apart from eachother during neolithic times.

    And I think the entire R clad was responsible for proto-Indo-European not just R1a branches.

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