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Thread: The Origin and Spread of Haplogroup J2a1979 days old

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    R1b and J2 are linked with the spread of metallurgy rather than with the spread of agriculture.

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    Not really. J2a reflects the spread of farming and I sincerely doubt R1b is any different. R1b in Europe might reflect the spread of metallurgy but the R1b in Europe was brought by farmers.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-13 at 19:40 ----------

    I am curious on the small pockets of M269 in Central Asia and South Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post

    [/COLOR]Which mtdna do you think these J2a farmers had in their tribes?
    J, U and H for sure.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-14 at 12:46 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post

    [/COLOR]I am curious on the small pockets of M269 in Central Asia and South Asia.

    I don't know for sure, but there's evidence of Tocharians being R1b-M343. It's origins are in West Asia and, seen that it was in Xinjiang with other haplogroups (notably J2), those could be the original haplogroups of Tocharians.


    Uyghur Urumqi Haplo Frequencies:


    1/31 = 3.2% Y*(xA, C, DE, J, K) (This could be B, F*, G, H, or I, but, judging from other sources of Uyghur Y-DNA data, it is most likely G-M201.)
    1/31 = 3.2% C*(xC1, C3) (This might be related to haplogroup C5-M356, which has been found in South Asia and Arabia.)
    2/31 = 6.5% E
    8/31 = 25.8% J
    1/31 = 3.2% N1*-LLY22g(xN1a, N1b, N1c)
    2/31 = 6.5% N1b
    1/31 = 3.2% O1a
    1/31 = 3.2% O3a3c*-M134(xO3a3c1-M117)
    1/31 = 3.2% O3a3c1-M117
    6/31 = 19.4% P*(xR1a) (This could be P*, Q, R*, R1b, or R2. I would guess that it is mostly R1b, mixed with smaller numbers of Q and R2.)
    7/31 = 22.6% R1a


    I explain the R1a from the Afanasevo/Andronovo cultures (Tarim mummies).
    Last edited by Italian Norman; 2012-06-14 at 11:32.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Italian Norman View Post
    J, U and H for sure.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-14 at 12:46 ----------




    I don't know for sure, but there's evidence of Tocharians being R1b-M343. It's origins are in West Asia and, seen that it was in Xinjiang with other haplogroups (notably J2), those could be the original haplogroups of Tocharians.


    Uyghur Urumqi Haplo Frequencies:


    1/31 = 3.2% Y*(xA, C, DE, J, K) (This could be B, F*, G, H, or I, but, judging from other sources of Uyghur Y-DNA data, it is most likely G-M201.)
    1/31 = 3.2% C*(xC1, C3) (This might be related to haplogroup C5-M356, which has been found in South Asia and Arabia.)
    2/31 = 6.5% E
    8/31 = 25.8% J
    1/31 = 3.2% N1*-LLY22g(xN1a, N1b, N1c)
    2/31 = 6.5% N1b
    1/31 = 3.2% O1a
    1/31 = 3.2% O3a3c*-M134(xO3a3c1-M117)
    1/31 = 3.2% O3a3c1-M117
    6/31 = 19.4% P*(xR1a) (This could be P*, Q, R*, R1b, or R2. I would guess that it is mostly R1b, mixed with smaller numbers of Q and R2.)
    7/31 = 22.6% R1a


    I explain the R1a from the Afanasevo/Andronovo cultures (Tarim mummies).
    There is really no evidence of Tocharians being R1b-M343 imho. The R1b in Asia is the M73 variety which isn't the type West asians and Europeans have. Not to mention R1b-M73 in Central Asia is only found among the Turks. M73 entered the Tarim with Turks.

    Afanasevo is the best candidate for being proto Tocharian. There is no reason to believe proto Tocharians and Proto Indo-Iranians weren't the same people from a genetic point of view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    There is really no evidence of Tocharians being R1b-M343 imho. The R1b in Asia is the M73 variety which isn't the type West asians and Europeans have. Not to mention R1b-M73 in Central Asia is only found among the Turks. M73 entered the Tarim with Turks.

    Afanasevo is the best candidate for being proto Tocharian. There is no reason to believe proto Tocharians and Proto Indo-Iranians weren't the same people from a genetic point of view.
    There is no reason to think the Afanasevo was proto-Tocharian because the Tarim mummies from Bronze Age (the older) are R1a, while if you look at the age of Tocharian being documented it is 800 C.E. It could match the later mummies described anthropologically as East-Med (J2, G, etc...).

    Read Dienekes' article:
    http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2011/05/...n-origins.html
    Last edited by Italian Norman; 2012-06-14 at 15:28.

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    J2a I think spread with many different cultural groups in both pre-historic and historic times out of West Asia/Near East. The first big movements probably happened during the Neolithic though. I do think that at least some haplogroup J2a men were among the first people to work with metals though as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Italian Norman View Post
    There is no reason to think the Afanasevo was proto-Tocharian because the Tarim mummies from Bronze Age (the older) are R1a, while if you look at the age of Tocharian being documented it is 800 C.E. It could match the later mummies described anthropologically as East-Med (J2, G, etc...).

    Read Dienekes' article:
    http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2011/05/...n-origins.html
    Proto-Tocharian words are today present in Volga Finnic languages like Erzya, who live just west of the Volga. That's proto-Andronovo and probably proto-Afanasyevo territory, but certainly not East Med territory.

    But yeah, by 800 C.E. deep in Asia, the Tocharians proper were probably very mixed, and carried all sorts of Y-DNA haplogroups and exotic phenotypes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    Proto-Tocharian words are today present in Volga Finnic languages like Erzya, who live just west of the Volga. That's proto-Andronovo and probably proto-Afanasyevo territory, but certainly not East Med territory.

    But yeah, by 800 C.E. deep in Asia, the Tocharians proper were probably very mixed, and carried all sorts of Y-DNA haplogroups and exotic phenotypes.
    Probably the R1a carriers that came into contact with proto-Tocharians borrowed some words from them and returned in their homeland, transmitting to the Finns what they learnt. I'm sure those borrowings do not exceed the threshold of some words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    Proto-Tocharian words are today present in Volga Finnic languages like Erzya, who live just west of the Volga. That's proto-Andronovo and probably proto-Afanasyevo territory, but certainly not East Med territory.

    But yeah, by 800 C.E. deep in Asia, the Tocharians proper were probably very mixed, and carried all sorts of Y-DNA haplogroups and exotic phenotypes.
    Was there some sort of Finnic admixture in Adronovo and Afanasevo or did Uralic groups move in later? Can we see anything Finno Uralic about them?

    And when you said Uralic types in Central Asia the other day that was North and West of Kazakhstan I presume?

    Some people think Fatyanovo–Balanovo is proto Tocharian. And tocharians moved through the forests not the steepe. They apparently had settlements in Tajikistan as well as the Aral Sea area of Kazakhstan/Uzbekistan and borrowed heavily from the BMAC or a BMAC like language.

    Would they have differed in their R1a and mtdna clades (at least the lineages native to them)?

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-15 at 13:04 ----------

    Either way I find the spread of J2b much more interesting. Where did that originate? How did that end up in South Asia especially the NW parts (pre Neolithic farmers- some of whom stayed behind and others who moved further South. What mtdnas did they bring?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Not really. J2a reflects the spread of farming and I sincerely doubt R1b is any different.
    Maybe in Asia, but in Europe there is no evidence behind it.

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