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Thread: The Origin and Spread of Haplogroup J2a1979 days old

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    Default The Origin and Spread of Haplogroup J2a

    I am quite interested in the origin and spread of haplogroup J2a. Most believe that J2a originated in either the Levant or northern Mesopotamia and was part of the first human groups to domesticate plants and animals in this region. From these areas of the Near East J2a then began migrating to other lands initially in search of more fertile lands to farm. Obviously later migrations during the Copper and Bronze ages right up until the Middle Ages probably also helped spread J2a into Europe and parts of North Africa and Central Asia. There is a good chance then I think that the originators of the Sumerian and other ancient Near Eastern civilizations may have initially been dominated by haplogroup J2a. One thing that is interesting and important to point out I think is that so far the dominant Y-DNA haplogroup of the early Neolithic farmers in Europe has turned out to be haplogroup G. No J2a has been found at all so far. I think this may point to J2a being a rather late entrant into continental Europe from the Near East. On the other hand maybe some J2a was present in the Mediterranean areas of Europe since Neolithic times. Here is a link with soe good background information on haplogroup J2a.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_(Y-DNA)

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    If you ask to others, they'll say that J2 is merely a spreader of agriculture, but if you ask to me, I'll say you the J2a is the Indo-Iranian carrier haplogroup.

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    I personally think J2a originates in the same area as R1b. The area encompassed by East Anatolia, Armenia and NW Iran.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Italian Norman View Post
    If you ask to others, they'll say that J2 is merely a spreader of agriculture, but if you ask to me, I'll say you the J2a is the Indo-Iranian carrier haplogroup.
    Yes certainly many will say J2 and more likely J2a is simply a haplogroup that initially spread agriculture out of it's area of origin in the Fertile Crescent. But clearly it can be connected to other later migrations as well. I also think that J2a can be linked to the early speakers of Indo-Iranian languages. It's distribution seems to scream that out.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-24 at 10:55 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    I personally think J2a originates in the same area as R1b. The area encompassed by East Anatolia, Armenia and NW Iran.
    If these two haplogroups originated in the same area then why didn't J2a migrate along with R1b in large numbers to Western Europe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAX View Post
    One thing that is interesting and important to point out I think is that so far the dominant Y-DNA haplogroup of the early Neolithic farmers in Europe has turned out to be haplogroup G.
    Another good question/observation. Yes it does seem interesting that the J2 y-DNA lineage has been absent among the earlier farming skeletal samples. Perhaps it is a sampling issue and it will pop up soon enough with more research but is does seem very interesting already what the results of shown and suggest.

    I still wouldn't rule it out though as an early Neolithic intruder to Europe. In Romania, J2 is well represented and that particular country c. 4000 BC was host to the Trypillian culture. Settlement sizes were believed by some to have rivaled Summerian urbanization at this time and one figure postulates as many as 400,000 people could have lived at one of the sites.

    Problem is not a lot of skeletal remains from the Trypillian culture are to be found, and none are male (!!!!). Archaeologists suspect a possible ritual for burial that did not involve formal deposition. On the other hand, it could simply be a survey bias. Of the few skulls that exist, archaeologists felt the community was more of the gracile near eastern type but I always put my money on aDNA these days more than anything else.

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    J2 is not found for the same reason R1b is not found in India. Different neolithic waves. Europe never received the J2a wave while South Asia did. On the other hand South Asia never received the R1b wave.

    Both originate along with G in Armenia, West Iran or East Anatolia imo.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-24 at 15:49 ----------

    Which mtdna do you think these J2a farmers had in their tribes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by geomattica View Post
    Another good question/observation. Yes it does seem interesting that the J2 y-DNA lineage has been absent among the earlier farming skeletal samples. Perhaps it is a sampling issue and it will pop up soon enough with more research but is does seem very interesting already what the results of shown and suggest.

    I still wouldn't rule it out though as an early Neolithic intruder to Europe. In Romania, J2 is well represented and that particular country c. 4000 BC was host to the Trypillian culture. Settlement sizes were believed by some to have rivaled Summerian urbanization at this time and one figure postulates as many as 400,000 people could have lived at one of the sites.

    Problem is not a lot of skeletal remains from the Trypillian culture are to be found, and none are male (!!!!). Archaeologists suspect a possible ritual for burial that did not involve formal deposition. On the other hand, it could simply be a survey bias. Of the few skulls that exist, archaeologists felt the community was more of the gracile near eastern type but I always put my money on aDNA these days more than anything else.
    I think that if Neolithic skeletal remains from the Mediterranean areas of Europe are tested then possibly some J2a will show up there. It's spread into Central and Northern Europe I think may be much later though. It would be great if they could find some male samples from the Trypillian culture to test.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-24 at 12:07 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    J2 is not found for the same reason R1b is not found in India. Different neolithic waves. Europe never received the J2a wave while South Asia did. On the other hand South Asia never received the R1b wave.

    Both originate along with G in Armenia, West Iran or East Anatolia imo.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-24 at 15:49 ----------

    Which mtdna do you think these J2a farmers had in their tribes?
    Hmmm interesting speculation indeed. As for the mtDNA types that went along with the early J2a farmers I am thinking that many of them were probably H, J, T, some U types and N. There were probably others as well of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    I personally think J2a originates in the same area as R1b. The area encompassed by East Anatolia, Armenia and NW Iran.
    In one word, that's the geographical area called Armenian Highland.
    The definition of the Armenian Highland from Britannica

    Armenian Highland, Russian Armyanskoye Nagorye, also spelled Arm’anskoje Nagor’e, mountainous region of Transcaucasia. It lies mainly in Turkey, occupies all of Armenia, and includes southern Georgia, western Azerbaijan, and northwestern Iran.


    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...enian-Highland

    The territory of today's Armenia is the result of the last century; in the studies concerning the area of the Armenian Highland and Armenians in general, this fact should be taken into account that just one century ago Armenians were living in the vast lands of the Armenian Highlands.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-24 at 19:37 ----------

    Political aspect

    When the Treaty of Lausanne was signed in 1923, the Republic of Turkey was established. It is claimed that in its attempts to Turkify the geographical and settlement names in Turkey, the authorities of the republic began a systematic campaign to alter non-Turkish placenames. These attempts included the name change of the geographical expression of "Armenia" or "Armenian plateau" to "Eastern Anatolia."[5] However, as can be seen in Turkish sources, the names Armenian plateau (Ermenistan Platosu) or Armenian Highland (Ermenistan Yaylası) are used to define the plateau. The term "Eastern Anatolia Region" is designated for the region and is mainly used for statistical purposes, while geographic expression Armenian plateau is continued to be used in contemporary Turkish sources.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Highland

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huri View Post
    In one word, that's the geographical area called Armenian Highland.
    The definition of the Armenian Highland from Britannica

    Armenian Highland, Russian Armyanskoye Nagorye, also spelled Arm’anskoje Nagor’e, mountainous region of Transcaucasia. It lies mainly in Turkey, occupies all of Armenia, and includes southern Georgia, western Azerbaijan, and northwestern Iran.


    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...enian-Highland

    The territory of today's Armenia is the result of the last century; in the studies concerning the area of the Armenian Highland and Armenians in general, this fact should be taken into account that just one century ago Armenians were living in the vast lands of the Armenian Highlands.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-24 at 19:37 ----------

    Political aspect

    When the Treaty of Lausanne was signed in 1923, the Republic of Turkey was established. It is claimed that in its attempts to Turkify the geographical and settlement names in Turkey, the authorities of the republic began a systematic campaign to alter non-Turkish placenames. These attempts included the name change of the geographical expression of "Armenia" or "Armenian plateau" to "Eastern Anatolia."[5] However, as can be seen in Turkish sources, the names Armenian plateau (Ermenistan Platosu) or Armenian Highland (Ermenistan Yaylası) are used to define the plateau. The term "Eastern Anatolia Region" is designated for the region and is mainly used for statistical purposes, while geographic expression Armenian plateau is continued to be used in contemporary Turkish sources.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Highland
    No. Sorry If I refuse to call native Assyrian, Iranian (old azari and azeri speakers), Azeri (and their caucasian albanian) and Georgian lands Armenian areas. No evidence that those people aren't native to those lands.
    Last edited by newtoboard; 2012-05-24 at 17:58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huri View Post
    In one word, that's the geographical area called Armenian Highland.
    The definition of the Armenian Highland from Britannica

    Armenian Highland, Russian Armyanskoye Nagorye, also spelled Arm’anskoje Nagor’e, mountainous region of Transcaucasia. It lies mainly in Turkey, occupies all of Armenia, and includes southern Georgia, western Azerbaijan, and northwestern Iran.
    Cool story bro.
    Dumb Post of the Year Award goes to....

    Quote Originally Posted by George1 View Post
    Lets took than the Iberian peninsula, 8 distant groups of IE was there Celtici Lusitanians Greeks Vandals Suevi Alani Goths and Italic people, only haplogroup G2a have there so many subgroups.
    The R1a have only one sugroup there the R1a1a1g2* and it is almost absent in that region
    Quote Originally Posted by Shamil Noukhaev aka ROnald Mcdonald View Post
    I will make all my best that all Georgians will be muredered with the maximum pain and maximum time of pain then use take you houses, churches as stripping clubs.

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