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Thread: Update on L10291958 days old

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by muso View Post
    So, David, you are saying that the presence of L1029 to the west, and the absence of L260 in the same area, means that this marker had to migrate prior to the early middle ages? As I mentioned, the Lugii confederation has been offered as a possible source for the spread of L1029. There is the debate as to whether they were German, Slavic or a mix. Perhaps there are other tribes which have been attributed as non Slavic, but might in fact have been Slavic, at least in part?
    I don't know of any Slavic migrations that far west. The furthest that the Slavs expanded was around modern day Hamburg. I'm pretty sure that the M458 across North Germany, and into Denmark, is thanks to those expansions.

    I suppose anything could've happened, but it does appear as if L260 is younger than L1209, and the former also shows a stronger correlation with Slavic speakers.

    So yes, the L1209 expansion was probably something else, like the Lugii. But perhaps they weren't Slavs or Germans, and spoke a language that is no longer around?
    Last edited by Polako; 2012-05-15 at 13:34.

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    So, unlike L260, L1029 may not be associated with Slavic speakers? I did find this information on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przeworsk_culture. The Veneti and Lugii are mentioned, along with the Vandals and Burgandians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by muso View Post
    So, unlike L260, L1029 may not be associated with Slavic speakers? I did find this information on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przeworsk_culture. The Veneti and Lugii are mentioned, along with the Vandals and Burgandians.
    I can believe the Veneti and Lugii, if they weren't Germanic, but I just can't see a connection between L1029 and Germanic tribes, unless we're just talking about some L1029 being picked up along the way of their travels.

    The whole idea of Germanic tribes inhabiting ancient North-Central Poland in any meaningful way will collapse as soon as M458 is established to be native to that area, especially via ancient DNA.
    Last edited by Polako; 2012-05-15 at 14:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    I can believe the Veneti and Lugii, if they weren't Germanic, but I just can't see a connection between L1029 and Germanic tribes, unless we're just talking about some L1029 being picked up along the way of their travels.

    The whole idea of Germanic tribes inhabiting ancient North-Central Poland in any meaningful way will collapse as soon as M458 is established to be native to that area, especially via ancient DNA.
    I agree David. I believe some of the tribes who were attributed in antiquity as being "German," such as the Lugii, are in fact Slavic or proto-Slavic and were the carriers of M458 and its subclade L1029. The presence of M458, L1029 and L260 can't be denied. Many of us carry those markers. They congregate in Poland. These people just didn't suddenly appear in the early middle ages. As one who carries L1029, I am trying to ascertain its ancient origins, especially in relation to M458 and L260, as well Z283. The migration of this marker has to be associated with some peoples or tribe(s). Tracing the evolution of these markers will hopefully help to establish their flow through those who carried it as they migrated several thousand years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by muso View Post
    I agree David. I believe some of the tribes who were attributed in antiquity as being "German," such as the Lugii, are in fact Slavic or proto-Slavic
    Or they were germanics who later got assimilated with changed language and culture as a result.

    Quote Originally Posted by muso View Post
    and were the carriers of M458 and its subclade L1029.
    How can you know?
    Last edited by blue3000; 2012-05-15 at 14:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blue3000 View Post
    Or they were germanics who later got assimilated with changed language and culture as a result.
    There's no correlation between Germanic Y-DNA markers like I1 and R1b-U106 with R1a-M458.

    So the only way your theory is possible, is if Eastern Germanic tribes had unusually low levels of I1 and R1b-U106, or the assimilation somehow only made sure that the R1a-M458 males reproduced in large numbers.

    These two theories aren't very realistic IMO. It's just much easier to say that the R1a-M458 natives of North-Central Poland, and even Eastern Germany, weren't Germanics.

    They either belonged to some sort of extinct language group, and/or they were part of the proto-Slavic horizon that stretched from modern Western Poland into modern Ukraine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blue3000 View Post
    Or they were germanics who later got assimilated with changed language and culture as a result.
    That seems like a convoluted way to explain things. I find it hard to believe that a people would migrate into an area, then completely change their language and culture. David (Polako) mentioned this earlier:"I can't see the proto-Germanics as part of the story, and I even have a hard time accepting that Eastern Germanics are worth mentioning. That's because I1 is at around 5% in that part of Poland (with apparently somewhat higher peaks in parts of Masovia) and R1b-U106 at around 6.5%. That's much lower than in, say, Denmark or North Germany, and we can easily explain these figures by saying they came with North German and Scottish migrations of the late Middle Ages, which are well attested."
    Genetically, it is hard to argue that the starting point for M458, and, subsequently, L1029, is north-central Poland. The dna is what it is. The question for me is, from where did its predecessors come, and to where did its successors go, at least during the Roman era and early middle ages?

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-15 at 14:05 ----------

    By the way, for those who are M458+ and L260-, you should get tested to see if you are L1029+. FTDNA offers the test for $29. David, I have seen past posts of yours where you mention that you have yet to test your y-dna. If this is still the case, aren't you interested in finding out what your y-dna is, especially with all the recent discoveries under R1a1a?
    Last edited by muso; 2012-05-15 at 15:09.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    There's no correlation between Germanic Y-DNA markers like I1 and R1b-U106 with R1a-M458.

    So the only way your theory is possible, is if Eastern Germanic tribes had unusually low levels of I1 and R1b-U106, or the assimilation somehow only made sure that the R1a-M458 males reproduced in large numbers.

    These two theories aren't very realistic IMO. It's just much easier to say that the R1a-M458 natives of North-Central Poland, and even Eastern Germany, weren't Germanics.

    They either belonged to some sort of extinct language group, and/or they were part of the proto-Slavic horizon that stretched from modern Western Poland into modern Ukraine.

    I belive it is risky to tie certain languages and cultures to genetic markers. History hasen´t been static and today enormous migrations is taking place. Finds can just be coincidents.

    What do you mean with proto-slavic anyway?.

    Have any ancient (culturally) germanic groups even been tested?
    Last edited by blue3000; 2012-05-15 at 15:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blue3000 View Post
    I belive it is risky to tie certain languages and cultures to genetic markers.
    Often it is, but some correlations are obvious, like I1 and R1b-U106 with Germanic groups, and R1a-M458 with Poles.

    So to go along with your story we have to make modern Poles into Eastern Germanic language shifters, and also say that there was some major Y-DNA dichotomy between ancient Western and Eastern Germanics.

    Why bother? Why not just say that Eastern Germanics either took a different route to Ukraine (like via present Hungary), or they just breezed through Poland?

    Have any ancient (culturally) germanic groups even been tested?
    Not yet. But I'd be shocked if they're tested and there's R1a-M458 instead of, or even alongside I1 and R1b-U106.

    Quote Originally Posted by muso View Post
    By the way, for those who are M458+ and L260-, you should get tested to see if you are L1029+. FTDNA offers the test for $29. David, I have seen past posts of yours where you mention that you have yet to test your y-dna. If this is still the case, aren't you interested in finding out what your y-dna is, especially with all the recent discoveries under R1a1a?
    To be honest, not really. It's just one ancestral line of many, and now that I know my autosomal genetic structure in detail, there's really nothing that my R1a1a can tell me.

    I'm more interested in the character of Polish R1a1a, and all other Polish haplogroups, especially their ancient origins, because that does tell me a lot about my own deep origins.

    But I will test my R1a1a one day. I expect that there will eventually be an R1a1a test that pinpoints my paternal line to a very specific part of Poland, and shows a detailed trail from the prehistoric home of R1a, wherever that might be, to Poland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by blue3000 View Post
    Have any ancient (culturally) germanic groups even been tested?
    Not yet. But I'd be shocked if they're tested and there's R1a-M458 instead of, or even alongside I1 and R1b-U106.
    Early-medieval burial place in Ergolding (Bavaria, Germany) was tested.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702742/

    It was settled by Germanic tribes in late-Merowig period ( 670 AD). So we have some Germanic hg’s. They were probably a mixture of Alemanni and Goths. They are not R1a-M458 but mostly R1b and some G.


    The theory of so called East Germanic tribes coming from Poland is very controversial. All evidence from genetics, anthropology, archeology and linguistics is against it. It was discussed earlier:

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...&postcount=232

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...&postcount=266

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...&postcount=348

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...0&postcount=11

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