User Tag List

Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 44

Thread: Update on L10291958 days old

  1. #1
    Established Member
    Molecular Biologist
    Last Online
    2016-07-19 @ 00:33
    Join Date
    2011-07-09
    Posts
    1,158
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    R-FG1247
    mtDNA
    H1c9a

    Default Update on L1029

    In February 2012 a new subclade was found for R1a-M458 which has been named L1029. It now appears this subclade first emerged around 700 BCE, about the same time as L260. What is interesting is the fact that, of those M458+ men who have tested for L1029 most have come back positive, but a few have yielded a negative result. All those who are negative, to date, have come from northern Poland, which makes me believe that M458 originated in northern Poland. There has also been some speculation that L1029, which has been found in men from Sweden to Germany to Russia, correlates with the Lusatian culture and possibly the Lugii confederation. I know there is controversy in the latter statement, as many attribute the Lugii confederation to the Germanic people. Any thoughts on these issues?

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to muso For This Useful Post:

    Otto Prohaska (2013-01-04), Wojewoda (2012-05-14)

  3. # ADS
    Advertisement bot
    Join Date
    2013-03-24
    Location
    ForumBiodiversity.com
    Posts
    All threads
       
     

  4. #2
    Established Member
    Evolutionary Biologist Wojewoda's Avatar
    Last Online
    Today @ 03:36
    Join Date
    2009-10-24
    Posts
    5,997
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    I1 Z63+ S2078+ L1237-
    mtDNA
    U3a1a
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Poland

    Default

    On a somewhat related note I was speculating earlier about the whole M-458 as a "Venedi/Veneti" marker.

    About the Lusation culture:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    It forms part of the Urnfield systems found from eastern France, southern Germany and Austria to Hungary and the Nordic Bronze Age in northwestern Germany and Scandinavia.
    So L1029 spread could be - if we tried hard - fitted into this area.

  5. #3
    Established Member
    Your Friend
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-10-23
    Posts
    9,602
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    R1a-Z282
    mtDNA
    H7
    Metaethnos
    Slavic
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Phenotype
    Barbarian
    Religion
    Crop Circles
    Poland

    Default

    It's really looking like a population rich in R1a-M458 has been native to modern Poland since at least the late Neolithic. Indeed, it's probably not a coincidence that modern Poles share most alleles with the Gotland hunter-gatherers from 5000 years ago, since they were just across the sea.

    Thus, modern Poles are in large part descendants of this old East Central European R1a-M458 population. So the question is, who were these ancestors of ours?

    Were the Venedi part of the Lugii Federation? Did they live side by side? Or are we talking about different timeframes here?

    Is it possible that the Venedi were proto-Western Slavs, and Germanic tribes occasionally traveled through their territory?
    Last edited by Polako; 2012-05-14 at 14:06.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Polako For This Useful Post:

    muso (2012-05-14)

  7. #4
    Established Member
    Molecular Biologist
    Last Online
    2016-07-19 @ 00:33
    Join Date
    2011-07-09
    Posts
    1,158
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    R-FG1247
    mtDNA
    H1c9a

    Default

    That is one of the questions I had as well David. I have seen debates over the past 3 years which place the origin of M458 from Poland to Germany to Danube Basin to Belarus or even Lithuania. If M458 has it origins in northern-central Poland, then what circumstances led to R1a-Z283 mutating into M458, which later branched off into L1029? Is it a mixing with the Gotland hunter-gatherers or some mixing with proto-Baltic tribes or perhaps a mixing with proto Germanic peoples?

  8. #5
    Established Member
    Your Friend
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-10-23
    Posts
    9,602
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    R1a-Z282
    mtDNA
    H7
    Metaethnos
    Slavic
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Phenotype
    Barbarian
    Religion
    Crop Circles
    Poland

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by muso View Post
    That is one of the questions I had as well David. I have seen debates over the past 3 years which place the origin of M458 from Poland to Germany to Danube Basin to Belarus or even Lithuania. If M458 has it origins in northern-central Poland, then what circumstances led to R1a-Z283 mutating into M458, which later branched off into L1029? Is it a mixing with the Gotland hunter-gatherers or some mixing with proto-Baltic tribes or perhaps a mixing with proto Germanic peoples?
    Well, I think it's becoming obvious that North-Central Poland is home to an ancient population which has always had a high frequency of R1a-M458, and didn't really move anywhere in large numbers until the Indo-European migrations, or even the migration period of the early middle ages.

    So as a result of that, this is also where most of the major mutations within M458 took place, and I'm pretty sure that both L260 and L1029 are native to the region.

    I can't see the proto-Germanics as part of the story, and I even have a hard time accepting that Eastern Germanics are worth mentioning. That's because I1 is at around 5% in that part of Poland (with apparently somewhat higher peaks in parts of Masovia) and R1b-U106 at around 6.5%. That's much lower than in, say, Denmark or North Germany, and we can easily explain these figures by saying they came with North German and Scottish migrations of the late Middle Ages, which are well attested.

    So the most plausible scenario I can think of, is that an ancient "Polish" population high in R1a-M458 became Slavic speaking after influence from the southeast. That ancient population might have been the Venedi and/or the Lugii, but I don't think these were Germanics. If we start seeing R1a-M458, including L1029, popping up in areas settled by Vandals and Goths, or better yet, in ancient Vandal and Gothic remains, then that would most likely indicate that individuals from this North-Central Polish population were incorporated into the ranks of wandering Germanic tribes, and migrated south with them.

    We're also now seeing R1a-M458 near the Caspian, in East Central Asia and in South Siberia. So it'll be interesting if it shows up in ancient Scythian or Andronovo skeletons. Of course, the other option is that it was spread into the far reaches of the former Soviet Union by Poles and nearby groups.

    BTW, the origins of M458 in Poland are looking more plausible with each day. Here's a map showing that there are actually two types of R1a-M458 (L260-, L1029-) present in North-Central Poland.

    Last edited by Polako; 2012-05-15 at 07:54.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Polako For This Useful Post:

    Pioterus (2013-01-04)

  10. #6
    Established Member
    Molecular Biologist
    Last Online
    2016-07-19 @ 00:33
    Join Date
    2011-07-09
    Posts
    1,158
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    R-FG1247
    mtDNA
    H1c9a

    Default

    QUOTE from Polako: "So the most plausible scenario I can think of, is that an ancient "Polish" population high in R1a-M458 became Slavic speaking after influence from the southeast. That ancient population might have been the Venedi and/or the Lugii, ...We're also now seeing R1a-M458 near the Caspian, in East Central Asia and in South Siberia. So it'll be interesting if it shows up in ancient Scythian or Andronovo skeletons."

    If we look to the southeast of Poland, we see the Ukraine. Do you think the influence was Scythian or Sarmatian?

  11. #7
    Established Member
    Your Friend
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-10-23
    Posts
    9,602
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    R1a-Z282
    mtDNA
    H7
    Metaethnos
    Slavic
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Phenotype
    Barbarian
    Religion
    Crop Circles
    Poland

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by muso View Post
    If we look to the southeast of Poland, we see the Ukraine. Do you think the influence was Scythian or Sarmatian?
    Well, maybe there was some of that. But I was actually saying that the proto-Slavs might have moved into North-Central Poland from Southeast Poland/Western Ukraine, mixed with the R1a-M458 locals, and gave them a Slavic language.

    But I don't know, because that would imply that these proto-Slavs brought R1a-Z280, when in fact, Z280 is even more frequent and diversified in North Poland and Eastern Germany than in Southeastern Poland/Western Ukraine.

    Edit: I actually meant that the Corded Ware might have carried M458 and moved east, into Central Asia, and then eventually became Scythians.
    Last edited by Polako; 2012-05-15 at 12:15.

  12. #8
    Established Member
    Molecular Biologist
    Last Online
    2016-07-19 @ 00:33
    Join Date
    2011-07-09
    Posts
    1,158
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    R-FG1247
    mtDNA
    H1c9a

    Default

    Regarding L1029, I have seen two dates for its emergence: approximately 1600 BCE and approximately 700 BCE. That would correlate with the Lusatian culture. However, those with L1029 have been found from France to Sweden to deep into Russia. Perhaps this is explained by the subsequent migration of Slavic tribes in the early middle ages?

  13. #9
    Established Member
    Your Friend
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-10-23
    Posts
    9,602
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    R1a-Z282
    mtDNA
    H7
    Metaethnos
    Slavic
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Phenotype
    Barbarian
    Religion
    Crop Circles
    Poland

    Default

    ^ Well, it seems in that case L1209 expanded before the Slavic migrations. See, if L1209 is found in Western Europe, then if it made the trek late, we'd also see L260 that way, but we don't. Maybe it's a Corded Ware or Venedi marker?

  14. #10
    Established Member
    Molecular Biologist
    Last Online
    2016-07-19 @ 00:33
    Join Date
    2011-07-09
    Posts
    1,158
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    R-FG1247
    mtDNA
    H1c9a

    Default

    So, David, you are saying that the presence of L1029 to the west, and the absence of L260 in the same area, means that this marker had to migrate prior to the early middle ages? As I mentioned, the Lugii confederation has been offered as a possible source for the spread of L1029. There is the debate as to whether they were German, Slavic or a mix. Perhaps there are other tribes which have been attributed as non Slavic, but might in fact have been Slavic, at least in part?

Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. 23andMe reference populations update?
    By EliasAlucard in forum Genetic DNA Companies
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 2011-06-28, 04:15
  2. Ozrage's Mcdonald BGA-update
    By Ozrage in forum Member Results
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 2011-05-14, 02:12
  3. F3 Haplogroup Update
    By Humanist in forum y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 2011-02-12, 14:42
  4. PS3 Firmware update 3.55 ISSUE
    By Ozrage in forum Modern Technology
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 2010-12-22, 21:43
  5. 23andme down for an update..
    By evon in forum Genetic DNA Companies
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 2010-05-08, 08:44

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
<