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Thread: Ancient Origins of the Kurds2617 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    It is certainly true that, among West Asians, the "Gedrosia" component is highest in Kurds and Iranians. However, it is not low in all West Asian populations.

    For example, I have the following K12b values:

    50.6 Caucasus
    21.1 Gedrosia
    18.4 Southwest_Asian
    9.1 Atlantic_Med

    0.5 East_Asian
    0.2 South_Asian
    0 Siberian
    0 Northwest_African
    0 Southeast_Asian
    0 North_European
    0 East_African
    0 Sub_Saharan


    Edit: Lezgins come in close to Kurds, as far as the "Gedrosia" component is concerned among West Asian groups.

    I think some Assyrians having higher levels of Gedrosia is not surprising you might of got from Iranians as the Assyrians average is is 18.3% compared to the Kurdish and Iranian average of 28.8%. Iranains also likely had a small genetic influence on west asian populations as well specialy regions close like Iraq,armenians..ect but not much. I agree North Caucasians do seem to have elevated numbers of Gedrosia but I do not know why that is.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-21 at 13:12 ----------

    Also even on DNA tribes I had high Indus-valley 21.5%. Compared to other west asians, who got below <10% or 0%. And I am not even fully Kurdish by ancestry.
    Last edited by StarDS9; 2012-06-21 at 13:26.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StarDS9 View Post
    I think some Assyrians having higher levels of Gedrosia is not surprising you might of got from Iranians as the Assyrians average is is 18.3% compared to the Kurdish and Iranian average of 28.8%. Iranains also likely had a small genetic influence on west asian populations as well specialy regions close like Iraq,armenians..ect but not much. I agree North Caucasians do seem to have elevated numbers of Gedrosia but I do not know why that is.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-21 at 13:12 ----------

    Also even on DNA tribes I had high Indus-valley 21.5%. Compared to other west asians, who got below <10% or 0%. And I am not even fully Kurdish by ancestry.
    Difference is mostly between East and West Assyrians. If I did receive it from Iranians (which I do not doubt), I reckon it was mostly from non-Indo-European Iranians. Though, I am sure I have some amount of Kurdish and/or Iranian IE ancestry. The Iraqi Mandaean "Gedrosia" values are even higher than my value. I believe they may have originated around Kirkuk. I believe my family (or at least a good many of them), are from the Arbil area. Long history of non-Indo-European Iranians around those parts (Iraq/Iran border).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bohemian Rhapsody View Post
    Yes, Kurds are partly of foreign Indo-Iranian racial stock, but the bulk of their ancestry is still native Hurrian. From Dodecad's latest spreadsheet Kurds are 8.3% North European. The Scythians were basically a group of rogue Russians with a North European score of 72%, so Kurds only have small traces of Scythian/Indo-European blood.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...0VVZPR0E#gid=0
    Having West Asian component does not mean to be a descendent of Hurrians, for God's sake, it's like to say if you have much Atlantic Baltic you're of "Polish ancestry".


    Except for the principality of Hayassa in the Armenian mountains, the Hurrians appear to have lost all ethnic identity by the last part of the 2nd millennium BC.

    The Rise of the Hurrians

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    Origin of the term "Kurd"

    Another great point of dispute is the name of the Kurds. Some will say it's a name that has been existence for millenia, others point out that the first attestation of it was during the Arab conquests to denote Iranic nomads. Let's diverge into this matter further.

    The First Kurd

    The first proper mention of the term "Kurd" was during the Sassanid period (AD 224–AD 651). During this period we'll see two prominent groups of "Kurds" described in historical texts.

    Let's take a look:

    The Kârnâmag î Ardashîr î Babagân
    ('Book of the Deeds of Ardashir, son of Babag')


    Spoiler: 
    CHAPTER 5.

    Afterwards he (viz., Ardashir), having collected many soldiers and heroes of Zavul, proceeded to battle against Mâdîg, the King of the Kurds. There was much fighting and bloodshed (in which) the army of Ardashir (finally) sustained a defeat. Ardashir became anxious on account of his own army. (On his way back) he came at night through a desert which contained neither water nor food, so he himself with all his troops and horses came to hunger and thirst. (Marching onward) he saw, from a distance, a fire belonging to (some) shepherds, and there Ardashir went and beheld an old man living with (his) cattle on a mountain-steppe. Ardashir passed the night there, and the next day he asked them (viz., the shepherds) about the road. They said: "Three frasangs hence there is a very fertile village which has many inhabitants and plenty of food." Ardashir went to that village, and dispatched a person to send to his capital his entire cavalry.

    The army of Madig boasted thus: "Now there should be no fear of Ardashir, as on account of his defeat he has returned to Pars.

    (Meanwhile) Ardashir, having prepared an army of four thousand men, rushed upon them (viz., the Kurds), and surprised them with a night attack. He killed one thousand of the Kurds, (while) others were wounded and taken prisoners; and out of the Kurds (that were imprisoned) he sent to Pars their king with his sons, brothers, children, his abundant wealth and property.


    Link:http://www.avesta.org/pahlavi/karname.htm



    A Letter to Ardashir I, from his enemy, Ardavan V

    Spoiler: 

    You've bitten off more than you can chew
    and you have brought death to yourself.
    0 son of a Kurd, raised in the tents of
    the Kurds, who gave you permission to put
    a crown on your head?


    Link: http://www.kavehfarrokh.com/wp-conte...lamic-iran.pdf

    From the same source:

    Rashid Yasami believes that the Kurds' original home was Fars. He cites as evidence the Persian historian Beihaqi (c. 1000 A.D.). Each reason and area has something associated with it: the wise men of Greece, the painters of China...and the Kurds (akrad) of Fars. According to Yasami, not only were the Kurds of Fars a major support of Sassanian power, but Ardashir I, the founder of the empire, was himself a Kurd. He says that Sasan, Ardashir's
    grandfather, married Ram Behesht of the Bazanjan Kurds, who, according to istakhri, were one of the five Kurdish tribes of Fars. Their son Pgpak took advantage of his Kurdish connections and sent his son Ardashir as governor to Darabgerd (Darab), which was the center of the Chupanan, or Shabankareh, the large federation of tribes to which the Banzanjan belonged and who had been Sasan's original protectors. These same Kurds of Fars now became Ardashir's supporters in his revolt against Ardavan V, the Arsacid ruler.


    Now, the general consensus is that during these times "Kurd" was solely used as a social term for nomads and shepherds of Iranic origin. Though, I have a few remarks to make:
    -Madig and his troops, centered around Kermanshah, don't seem to have been nomads nor shepherds; they appeared to have been sedentary and to be warriors.
    -In Ardavan V's wordings one can clearly see the social background of the term, but interestingly, the tribe of which Ardashir I descended (Shabankareh) seems to have survived until today, in the form of a Kurdish tribe near Kermanshah. Indeed, a tribe by the name of Shabankara is based there.

    Earlier forms

    However, similar terms have been attested throughout the millenia in Mesopotomia. Indeed, "Kur", "Guti", "Carduchi", "Cyrtii" all denoted peoples inhabiting the Zagros mountains. Some of these were thought to simply denote all barbarian tribes in mountain territory North of Mesopotamia, regardless of ethnicity.

    Thoughts of F. Hennerbichler:

    Spoiler: 

    Similar, “Kurd” seems to derive from the assumed Sumerian originated word stem “kur”, first recorded millennia back B.C.E., meaning [kur = mountain/land] > “inhabitants of the mountains” or casually mountaineers (“Bergler”). The umbrella compound expression “kur”-com- prises also a variety of terms, some sound similar like “kur-ti”, in a wider sense “kar-da” too, others completely different like G/K/Quti, Lullubi, Arrapha, Urbilum, Zamua, Mehri or Ba-banhi, and in addition et aliae translated into Greek and Roman like Kárdakes, Carduchi, or Cyrtii (Cyrtioi). Which illustrates as well, that not all Kurds (speakers of the “Kurdish Complex”) share this family name (compound term label), but obviously most of them call themselves “Kurd” and identify with a com-mon homeland “Kurdistan” (land of Kurds).

    Link: http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperDo...&paperID=19564


    Is it possible that this ancient term was simply copied by the Persians and Arabs to denote a people with similar customs and zone of inhabitation? You be the judge, but it seems likely to me.
    Last edited by Zert; 2012-06-21 at 18:03.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StarDS9 View Post
    The true Scythians would not of differed from the Medes,Persians,Parthains as they were from the same parents.
    The Scythians were some 1000 miles north of the Medes, Persians and Parthians. Scythians would've had a lot less of the South and West Asian influence than Medes and other southern Iranics who live near the Syr Darya river and Kyzyl-Kum desert. Comparing them with Scythians is like comparing apples with oranges.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDS9 View Post
    Russians?
    Do you have a better proxy for the Scythians? It's certainly not the Kurds or Iranians who are mostly just BMAC farmers who were force-fed Iranian language and culture like everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDS9 View Post
    But the Iranic Scythains would of been Central Asian stock like their other Iranian and Indo-Iranian brothers.
    Define "Central Asian stock"? Scythians were basically just some kind of Eastern Europeans who went camping in Central Asia and Siberia - so they were of Eastern European stock.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDS9 View Post
    Also the Scythians were Z93 like the early Iranians were and the most R1a subgroup found amog Iranics. Even Herodotus believed the Iranic Scythians came from Central Asia.
    Z93 is thought to be an offshoot of some simpler form of R1a back west.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huri View Post
    Having West Asian component does not mean to be a descendent of Hurrians, for God's sake, it's like to say if you have much Atlantic Baltic you're of "Polish ancestry".
    Where the hell did you see me say anything about West-Asian being attributed to Hurrians?
    Last edited by Bohemian Rhapsody; 2012-06-22 at 08:45.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bohemian Rhapsody View Post
    The Scythians were some 1000 miles north of the Medes, Persians and Parthians. Scythians would've had a lot less of the South and West Asian influence than Medes and other southern Iranics who live near the Syr Darya river and Kyzyl-Kum desert. Comparing them with Scythians is like comparing apples with oranges.



    Do you have a better proxy for the Scythians? It's certainly not the Kurds or Iranians who are mostly just BMAC farmers who were force-fed Iranian language and culture like everyone else.



    Define "Central Asian stock"? Scythians were basically just some kind of Eastern Europeans who went camping in Central Asia and Siberia - so they were of Eastern European stock.



    Z93 is thought to be an offshoot of some simpler form of R1a back west.



    Where the hell did you see me say anything about West-Asian being attributed to Hurrians?
    Scythians spoke a East Iranian language not a separate indo-Iranian group to say that they were earlier form of the Indo-Iranians. They moved out of west central(Southern Kazakhstan,Turkmenistan) asia to the North. They were part of the early Iranics therefore they would of had to have been close to other early Iranians even other East Iranians who were not Scythians were located near other Indo-Iranians like Massagetae who were located in Bukhara and the Dahae who were in Turkemenistan. The BMAC was the homaland of the early Indo-Iranians it was the homeland even before the creation of the Scythian language. It is more like the Scythians moved out of the BMAC regions to the North and mixed with some other populations.

    Russians do not represent the Iranic Scythians they are not Iranians. Todays East Iranians are the only true descended's of the Iranic Scythians not Russians who came from Eastern Europe post Scythian era. Like I have mentioned the term Scythian was used to describe many different groups, not all of them likely even spoke a iranian language.


    Forcefed? LOL The Medes,Persians,Parthians and even Indo-Aryans built a more civilized and advanced civilization who according to you were force-fed compared to their brothers in the North.
    Last edited by StarDS9; 2012-06-22 at 12:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bohemian Rhapsody View Post
    Where the hell did you see me say anything about West-Asian being attributed to Hurrians?
    And what is attributed to Hurrians according to you? How can you speak of such a genetic connection in reality?

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    Quote Originally Posted by StarDS9 View Post
    It is more like the Scythians moved out of the BMAC regions to the North and mixed with some other populations.
    But why is this likely? It seems to me it's just what you want to believe.

    The earliest Scythians were virtually indistinguishable from Andronovo steppe tribes, and earlier Eastern European steppe tribes before them.

    They all came from the north, not from the south.

    Why would you suggest that all those Scythian things inspired by life on the steppe came from the south and entered the steppe to the north? It makes no sense. The movement of people, DNA (including R1a1a), and steppe skills and art flowed from the steppe in the north to the south.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StarDS9 View Post
    Scythians spoke a East Iranian language not a separate indo-Iranian group to say that they were earlier form of the Indo-Iranians. They moved out of west central(Southern Kazakhstan,Turkmenistan) asia to the North.
    We do not know the language of Scythians.
    No text has been preserved. No reports.
    People used to believe it was an East Iranian language because it was widely believed that Ossetians were descendents of Scythians.
    Now we are sure that Ossetians don’t have anything to do with Scythians. Their R1a1 level (IE and Scythian marker)is close to 0%. It is a Caucasus population which got it’s language from Iran.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    But why is this likely? It seems to me it's just what you want to believe.

    The earliest Scythians were virtually indistinguishable from Andronovo steppe tribes, and earlier Eastern European steppe tribes before them.

    They all came from the north, not from the south.

    Why would you suggest that all those Scythian things inspired by life on the steppe came from the south and entered the steppe to the north? It makes no sense. The movement of people, DNA (including R1a1a), and steppe skills and art flowed from the steppe in the north to the south.
    Because the Scythians were a East Iranian group they were not a seperate Indo-Iranian group. All the other Indo-Iranians were located further south. There is not mention of other Indo-Iranian groups in the North during the era of the Scythians nor is there one today. My own belief is the Proto-Indo-Iranians settled in west central asia and indo-europeanized the BMAC and then the moved further south and west and north and maybe Scythianized tribes in the north. The Culture of the BMAC reflect that of the Indo-Iranians which dates back 2000bc. The Andronovo spoke proto-indo-iranian and that pre-dates Scythians who spoke a east iranian language. The Ossetians speak language of the Scythians yet they have no R1a. I am no history buff so I am not claiming to know it all.

    The R1a gene flow and culture to the south pre-dates the Scythians, R1a expansion happened over time rather then a certain time or group.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-22 at 13:37 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by EastPole View Post
    We do not know the language of Scythians.
    No text has been preserved. No reports.
    People used to believe it was an East Iranian language because it was widely believed that Ossetians were descendents of Scythians.
    Now we are sure that Ossetians don’t have anything to do with Scythians. Their R1a1 level (IE and Scythian marker)is close to 0%. It is a Caucasus population which got it’s language from Iran.
    The term Scythian was used also for non iranian groups, the ancient Persians used the term Saka to describe Nomads. Well they could of spoken various languages, their is nothing to suggest that they spoke one language.

    The only written Scythian writting was found in Saqqez in Kurdistan province,Iran which is iranian. Some others have been found in Central Asia but no one is sure what language it is.

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