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Thread: Ancient Origins of the Kurds2619 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by EastPole View Post
    We do not know the language of Scythians.
    No text has been preserved. No reports.
    People used to believe it was an East Iranian language because it was widely believed that Ossetians were descendents of Scythians.
    Now we are sure that Ossetians don’t have anything to do with Scythians. Their R1a1 level (IE and Scythian marker)is close to 0%. It is a Caucasus population which got it’s language from Iran.
    It si pretty safe to say their language was Iranian. That is hard to believe. NE Iranian languages were mainly a North Central Asian things. Scythians occupied Kazakhstan/Kyrgyzstan mainly. Although some say the Massgetae were also Scythians which would extend to their range to Uzbekistan.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-22 at 14:33 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDS9 View Post
    Scythians spoke a East Iranian language not a separate indo-Iranian group to say that they were earlier form of the Indo-Iranians. They moved out of west central(Southern Kazakhstan,Turkmenistan) asia to the North. They were part of the early Iranics therefore they would of had to have been close to other early Iranians even other East Iranians who were not Scythians were located near other Indo-Iranians like Massagetae who were located in Bukhara and the Dahae who were in Turkemenistan. The BMAC was the homaland of the early Indo-Iranians it was the homeland even before the creation of the Scythian language. It is more like the Scythians moved out of the BMAC regions to the North and mixed with some other populations.

    Russians do not represent the Iranic Scythians they are not Iranians. Todays East Iranians are the only true descended's of the Iranic Scythians not Russians who came from Eastern Europe post Scythian era. Like I have mentioned the term Scythian was used to describe many different groups, not all of them likely even spoke a iranian language.


    Forcefed? LOL The Medes,Persians,Parthians and even Indo-Aryans built a more civilized and advanced civilization who according to you were force-fed compared to their brothers in the North.
    Not really. Like I said Scythians were mainly a Kazakhstan/Kyrgzstan/portions of Southern Russia thing. There isn't much to support theories like this.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-22 at 14:36 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    But why is this likely? It seems to me it's just what you want to believe.

    The earliest Scythians were virtually indistinguishable from Andronovo steppe tribes, and earlier Eastern European steppe tribes before them.

    They all came from the north, not from the south.

    Why would you suggest that all those Scythian things inspired by life on the steppe came from the south and entered the steppe to the north? It makes no sense. The movement of people, DNA (including R1a1a), and steppe skills and art flowed from the steppe in the north to the south.
    I agree to some degree. R1a certainly flowed North to South. But there might have been farming communities to the North that moved from the South. There were supposed to be a few mixed Andronovo/BMAC settlments around the Aral Sea.
    Last edited by newtoboard; 2012-06-22 at 15:38.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    It si pretty safe to say their language was Iranian. That is hard to believe. NE Iranian languages were mainly a North Central Asian things. Scythians occupied Kazakhstan/Kyrgyzstan mainly. Although some say the Massgetae were also Scythians which would extend to their range to Uzbekistan.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-22 at 14:33 ----------



    Not really. Like I said Scythians were mainly a Kazakhstan/Kyrgzstan/portions of Southern Russia thing. There isn't much to support theories like this.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-22 at 14:36 ----------



    I agree to some degree. R1a certainly flowed North to South. But there might have been farming communities to the North that moved from the South. There were supposed to be a few mixed Andronovo/BMAC settlments around the Aral Sea.
    No because they do not speak a Iranian language nor do they identify themselves as Iranic.

    Also I do not think alll groups that were reffered to as Scythians were Iranic speaking, there is no evidence to suggest that all Scythian groups spoke a Iranian language like how many groups were reffered to as Turks in the Ottoman era but were not Turks.


    Anyway you might find this interesting here is the Dodecad result of a Kurd from Kurdistan province, his Gedrosia and North European components are higher then the Kurdish and Iranian average. As Kurds are a mix of different iranian groups, certain regions might have a higher influence from the early iranians.

    Kurd from Kurdistan province,Iran(former Scythian capital in west asia).

    Gedrosia 29.8
    Siberian 0.7
    South east asian 1.9
    Atlantic-Med 5.8
    North European 9.8
    South Asian 0.9
    South West Asian 14
    Caucasus 36.7

    Kurdish Average

    Gedrosia 28.7
    Siberian 1.5
    South east asian 0.4
    Atlantic-Med 5.9
    North European 5.7
    South Asian 1.1
    South West Asian 14
    Caucasus 40.4

    Iranian Average

    Gedrosia 28.8
    Siberian 2.1
    South east asian 0.6
    Atlantic-Med 5.6
    North European 6
    South Asian 3.6
    South West Asian 12.4
    Caucasus 40.3
    Last edited by StarDS9; 2012-06-22 at 16:30.

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    Then what were the people of Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan speaking? These people are right in the vicinity of Andronovo. And have the same R1a as their southern neighbors. You might argue at best certain regions of North Central Asia were Tocharian speaking. There is a reason Kazakhs and Kyrgyz have more of the Northern European component than their Southern neighbors. And like I said I think there was gene flow to the North in the form of mixed farming communities around the Aral Sea. But it seems like West asian flowed South to North and Northern European North to South.

    I find the 72% Northern European number quite random. What was the other 28%? Certainly not SW Asian/Mediterranean? And how did they became 28% West Asian then?


    I find it interesting he has less Siberian and more Northern European. Also since when did Iranians have such low Atlantic Med. I always thought it was closer to 10 to 12%. That is strange to say the least. But then he has more Southeast Asia. I don't even know what conclusion to draw. Maybe some Hittie Aancestry? Galatian? I don't know. The SW Asian/Med components are interesting. namely they never seem to make it into Central And South Asia but certain Central Asian and South Asian individuals show them at 1-5% while most have about 0% which I find interesting. So where did these small amounts come from? Was the BMAC almost entirely West Asian (with just minor amounts of South Asian from interactions with Southerners). At this point it was looking like the Proto Indo-Iranians didn't have any Non Northern European admixture since there are no R1b or J lineages associated with Andronovo but even modern Eastern Europeans are only ~70% Northern European. But where would the West Asian admixture come from on the steepe ? And where would Mediterranean come from? There are almost no tripoyle ydnas in Andronovo. This is probably wrong. it seems impossible to believe that people had just one autosomal component. There is something missing to this puzzle.
    Last edited by newtoboard; 2012-06-22 at 17:20.

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    Scythians were definitely Iranic and spoke Iranian languages which can be found still today in remote areas of Asia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakha_Republic

    Also, Sakha meaning "Scythian" in Iranian
    Last edited by Eliades; 2012-06-22 at 19:55.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliades View Post
    Scythians were definitely Iranic and spoke Iranian languages which can be found still today in remote areas of Asia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakha_Republic

    Also, Sakha meaning "Scythian" in Iranian
    The Turkic Sakha people or Yakuts probably settled in the area in the 13th and 14th centuries, migrating north from the Lake Baikal area to the middle Lena. According to their own traditional accounts, the Sakha were driven out of their earlier homeland by the Buryats. From their new center along the middle Lena they gradually expanded northeast and west beyond the Lena basin towards the Arctic Ocean.
    The name Sakha is of Turk origin, "Saqa-Saha" meaning "Cue, Bat". The term Yakut is a Turk word, probably a corruption of zhaqut - yakut "semi-precious stone". The Sakha displaced earlier, much smaller populations who lived on hunting and reindeer herding, introducing the pastoralist economy of Central Asia. The indigenous populations of Paleosiberian and Tungusic stock were mostly assimilated to the Sakha by the 17th century
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakha_R...#Early_history

    European Scythians were definitely not Iranic and didn’t speak Iranian language IMO. There is no proof of that.We know that Ossetians were not Scythians.

    There are no Iranian languages found outside Persian Empire. Most probably some nomadic tribes there become Iranized.

    ‘Scythian’ languages are not known.

    I think that ‘Scythians’ living on semi-desert steppe of Central Asia and ‘Scythians’ living on green wet steppe and forest steppe of Ukraine were completely different people, genetically and linguistically. Soon we will find out with new aDNA data coming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EastPole View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakha_R...#Early_history

    European Scythians were definitely not Iranic and didn’t speak Iranian language IMO. There is no proof of that.We know that Ossetians were not Scythians.

    There are no Iranian languages found outside Persian Empire. Most probably some nomadic tribes there become Iranized.

    ‘Scythian’ languages are not known.

    I think that ‘Scythians’ living on semi-desert steppe of Central Asia and ‘Scythians’ living on green wet steppe and forest steppe of Ukraine were completely different people, genetically and linguistically. Soon we will find out with new aDNA data coming.
    Ossetians are descended from Alans. They even refer to themselves as Iron in they're own language. The Alans were actually Sarmatian, a people similar to the Scythians who spoke an Iranian language. The Ossetians of course speak a form of Iranian language.

    Scythian languages are not completely or fully known. We only have small amounts given to us via Greek chronicles. The words the anceint Greeks took note of do appear Iranian though its a scant few.

    More compelling IMO as to why it should be believed that Scythians spoke an Iranian language is because Slavic languages are incompletely Satemized Indo-European languages. Satemization refers to the process of softened IE velars among the east IE langauges, essentially the Indo-Iranian versions where the sound shift process of Satemization took place. The western IE languages are Kentumized or retain the hard velar sounds that are believed to have been originally characteristic of PIE. Slavic langauges feature aspects of Kentum and Satemization which gives clue to the fact that they straddled the western (Kentum) and eastern (Satem) Indo-Euopean speaking worlds. Only logical reason for this is that they had contact with Iranian people in close proximity to them. Since Persians did not interact with Slavs during times remote, it could have only been Scythians that influenced the Satemization of Slavic languages.

    Also there are some Indo-Iranian words that made it into Slavic which could not be atributed to Persian influence:

    god
    Slavic = 'bog'
    Old Persian word for god = 'baga'
    Sanskrit = 'bhag'

    dog
    Slavic = 'sobaka'
    Iranic = 'spaka'

    to wake
    Slavic = budit
    Indo-Aryan languages still refer to 'Buddha' or 'the awakened one'.

    The only logical explanation is that there was an Iranian speaking group in Ukraine during the Iron Age that introduced these terms to the Slavs. And that group would have been the Scythians.
    Last edited by geomattica; 2012-06-22 at 21:01.

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    The Carduchians

    So last time some the etymology of the term "Kurd" was covered. Now, let's diverge further into the history of one of the (possible) Kurdish etymological ancestors; the Carduchians.

    Situated in the deep southeast of Anatolia, these mountain dwellers were attested by several historians, though the best account of them is that of the Greek historian Xenephon.

    In the Anabasis, Xenephon details his efforts in conquering Persia, though, he fails and has to retreat to friendly Armenia, though not before crossing through Corduene, which would prove to be quite a handful.



    Indeed, as they traversed Corduene, they would lose more men than they did whilst fighting the Persians. Though light on arms, the Carduchians knew perfectly how to utilise their surroundings to harras their enemies, with hit-and-run and guerilla-like tactics.

    However, it seems that the Carduchians would be not merely uncivilised barbarians, Xenephon talks of their provisions:

    Thereupon the Carduchians abandoned their dwelling places, and with their wives and children fled to the mountains; so there was plenty of provisions to be got for the mere trouble of taking, and the homesteads too were well supplied with a copious store of bronze vessels and utensils which the Hellenes kept their hands off,...
    Also, it seems that the Carduchians had made a unique kind of bow:

    They were, moreover, excellent archers, using bows nearly three cubits long and arrows more than two cubits. When discharging the arrow, they draw the string by getting a purchase with the left foot planted forward on the lower end of the bow. The arrows pierced through shield and cuirass, and the Hellenes, when they got hold of them, used them as javelins, fitting them to their thongs.
    Moreover, in later Roman sources, the Carduchians were depicted as good builders by the historian Strabo:

    Near the Tigris, lie the places belonging to the Gordyaeans: and their cities are named Sareisa and Satalca and Pinca, a very powerful fortress with three citadels, each enclosed by a separate fortification of its own, so that they constitute as it were, a triple city. But still it not only was held in subjection by the King of the Armenians, but the Romans took it by force, although the Gordyaens had an exceptional repute as master- builders and as experts in the construction of siege engines: and it was for this reason that Tiagranes used them in such work…. The country is rich in pasturage and so rich in plants that it also produces the evergreens and spice plants called amomum: and it is a feeding- ground for lions: and it also produces naphtha and the stone called gangitis, which is avoided by reptiles. (16.1.24)
    It seems that the Carduchians were, at least linguistically, Iranic. Xenephon mentions him having to use an interpreter (which was normally used to converse with Persians) to communicate with Carduchian captives. Ultimately, Xenephon and his troops would escape Corduene, by crossing the eastern bank of the Tigris.

    Able warriors as they were, they would remain under the reign of other empires for most of their existence. During the early Roman era, their lands were much valued and stretched untill present-day Diyarbakir.

    Interesting to note is that they might have revered Teshub (detucted by the presence of "Tesup" in their names), showing that perhaps they Hurrians that were only recently Iranicized by language.

    The scribe of this letter, a certain Bag-te-sup,
    whose name is evidently a compound of Bag and Te-sup, the
    god not only of Mitanni and ancient Kirhu and Gorduene
    (cf. Sadi-Tesup, Kali-Tesup, Kili-Tesup)
    , but also of the
    GUimirrai (cf. the name Te - us-pa), and this scribe may there-
    fore very well have been from the land of Gimirra.
    Lastly, it's also important to note that Mount Judi took its name from the Carduchians, for, in ancient sources it was named Mount Qardu. This mountain, and not Mount Ararat, was the alleged place where Noah's Ark stranded.

    George Sale:
    This mountain [al-Judi] is one of those that divide Armenia on the south, from Mesopotamia, and that part of Assyria which is inhabited by the Curds, from whom the mountains took the name Cardu, or Gardu, by the Greeks turned into Gordyae, and other names. ... Mount Al-Judi (which seems to be a corruption, though it be constantly so written by the Arabs, for Jordi, or Giordi) is also called Thamanin ..., probably from a town at the foot of it.
    Kurds or not?
    The question remains, were they the ancestors of the Kurds? In old sources Kurds are often equated with the Carduchians, sometimes the two were even used interchangeably. However, some authors doubt the alleged connection between the two (among whom is Asatrian).

    Let's put some facts in a row:
    The Carduchians were Iranic, lived in Southeast Anatolia, were warlike mountain dwellers, and their name resembles the term "Kurd". You be the judge, but to me it seems almost certain that they constitute one of the ancestors of the Kurds.

    Remains (?)
    No remains of the Carduchians seem to exist, though, the findings of the PKK I mentioned earlier are possibly theirs. Here more pictures of their discovery:

    Spoiler: 





    However, when reading a touristic guide of the Sirnak region (which Corduene encompassed), I stumbled upon two historical sites that allegedly were Gutian(!) in origin: the Cizire Fortress and the Kasrik Bridge. Now, being a Turkish guide, their desclusion of anything Kurdish is unsurprising (no offence, that's just the way it is, they didn't even mention where from Mount Judi took its name in the guide), and since the Gutians lived quite a bit further south (and in 2400 B.C.), could these be actual Carduchian remains?

    Sources:
    Anabasis
    Strabo
    The Seven Great Monarchies Of The Ancient Eastern World, Vol 7: Sassanian Empire
    George Sale
    Notes on Assyrian and Babylonian Geography
    Touristic guide: http://www.guneydogumirasi.org/eng/s...ide/sirnak.pdf

    Next time, I'll delve further into the opinions of historians whether they were truly Kurdish ancestors or not.
    Last edited by Zert; 2012-06-22 at 21:53.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geomattica View Post
    Ossetians are descended from Alans. They even refer to themselves as Iron in they're own language. The Alans were actually Sarmatian, a people similar to the Scythians who spoke an Iranian language. The Ossetians of course speak a form of Iranian language..
    Geomattica, we know Scythian aDNA, it is 100% R1a1. Ossetians don’t have this hg. their level of R1a1 is around 0%. It is a Caucasian population with link to Iran. They are not genetically related to Scythians. Scythian languages are not known.

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...&postcount=125



    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...&postcount=128


    Forget satem and centum, it is outdated staff.


    Quote Originally Posted by geomattica View Post

    Only logical reason for this is that they had contact with Iranian people in close proximity to them.
    Forget logic and study languages.


    Geomattica, there are thousands of very similar words between Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages.

    Slavic forms are more archaic and conservative as in general Slavic languages are more archaic and conservative.

    ‘Bog’ has many derived forms in Slavic and is not considered to be a borrowing by serious linguists i.e. those who know languages. I have many etymological dictionaries and all claim that it is a Slavic word which evolved from Pro-Slavic, which evolved from PIE. In Polish we have for example derived forms like ‘zboży’, ‘ubogi’, ‘nieboga’ etc., and many verbs, adjectives, nouns derived from that. Many more than Iranians or Indians together.

    For you to consider:

    “The Sanskrit Language” Thomas Burrow Page 22-23



    http://books.google.pl/books?id=cWDh...woreds&f=false

    You can also read about similarities between Slavic and Vedic Sanskrit here:
    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...&postcount=128

    I suggest that you read carefully many posts by Dhira Simha and myself.

    I agree with his opinion that Proto-Slavonic = Proto-Indo-Iranian, i.e. before Aryans left Europe 2000 BC and went to Asia they were speaking very similar language to Proto-Slavonic. Proper Indo-Iranian languages evolved in Asia.

    Here is some info about migrations from Central-Eastern Europe to Asia:

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...11&postcount=5

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    Quote Originally Posted by EastPole View Post
    Geomattica, we know Scythian aDNA, it is 100% R1a1. Ossetians don’t have this hg. their level of R1a1 is around 0%. It is a Caucasian population with link to Iran. They are not genetically related to Scythians. Scythian languages are not known.

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...&postcount=125



    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...&postcount=128


    Forget satem and centum, it is outdated staff.



    Forget logic and study languages.


    Geomattica, there are thousands of very similar words between Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages.

    Slavic forms are more archaic and conservative as in general Slavic languages are more archaic and conservative.

    ‘Bog’ has many derived forms in Slavic and is not considered to be a borrowing by serious linguists i.e. those who know languages. I have many etymological dictionaries and all claim that it is a Slavic word which evolved from Pro-Slavic, which evolved from PIE. In Polish we have for example derived forms like ‘zboży’, ‘ubogi’, ‘nieboga’ etc., and many verbs, adjectives, nouns derived from that. Many more than Iranians or Indians together.

    For you to consider:

    “The Sanskrit Language” Thomas Burrow Page 22-23



    http://books.google.pl/books?id=cWDh...woreds&f=false

    You can also read about similarities between Slavic and Vedic Sanskrit here:
    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...&postcount=128

    I suggest that you read carefully many posts by Dhira Simha and myself.

    I agree with his opinion that Proto-Slavonic = Proto-Indo-Iranian, i.e. before Aryans left Europe 2000 BC and went to Asia they were speaking very similar language to Proto-Slavonic. Proper Indo-Iranian languages evolved in Asia.

    Here is some info about migrations from Central-Eastern Europe to Asia:

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...11&postcount=5
    First, no I don't think its good to forget logic. That's pretty bad.

    You are making a 1 to 1 correlation with genes to languages. That's erroneous logic. For instance I speak English as my native tongue but I am not an Englishman and my DNA is not like an Englishman. Its completely possible to speak a language yet possess certain other genetic traits not similar w/the ethno-linguitstic group as a whole. Jaska, another user here involved in this stuff, gets this idea well.

    You also mistakenly refer to Ossetians as Scythians. They are not Scythians. They, in the historical record, are regarded as Sarmatians, another Iranian speaking steppe people. There were two different macro level terms for the Iranian speaking nomadic groups of the steppes deriving from western sources: Scythian and Sarmatian.

    Last I heard, Satem and Kentum were still valid linguistic aspects within the realm of Indo-European studies. Mr. Burrows is entitled to his own opinion but I doubt there wasn't a Scythian (Iranian) influence on Slavic languages. As for the rest of your sources, I'm really not interested in more forum board propaganda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EastPole View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakha_R...#Early_history

    European Scythians were definitely not Iranic and didn’t speak Iranian language IMO. There is no proof of that.We know that Ossetians were not Scythians.

    There are no Iranian languages found outside Persian Empire. Most probably some nomadic tribes there become Iranized.

    ‘Scythian’ languages are not known.

    I think that ‘Scythians’ living on semi-desert steppe of Central Asia and ‘Scythians’ living on green wet steppe and forest steppe of Ukraine were completely different people, genetically and linguistically. Soon we will find out with new aDNA data coming.
    There are plenty of Iranian languages outside the Persian empire. The Scythians of the European steepe come from the East and were pushed out by the Asian steppe by other tribes.

    Everything sentence in your post should have IMO after it because it is all speculation.

    aDNA will prove language? Haha

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-23 at 03:12 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by EastPole View Post
    Geomattica, we know Scythian aDNA, it is 100% R1a1. Ossetians don’t have this hg. their level of R1a1 is around 0%. It is a Caucasian population with link to Iran. They are not genetically related to Scythians. Scythian languages are not known.

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...&postcount=125



    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...&postcount=128


    Forget satem and centum, it is outdated staff.



    Forget logic and study languages.


    Geomattica, there are thousands of very similar words between Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages.

    Slavic forms are more archaic and conservative as in general Slavic languages are more archaic and conservative.

    ‘Bog’ has many derived forms in Slavic and is not considered to be a borrowing by serious linguists i.e. those who know languages. I have many etymological dictionaries and all claim that it is a Slavic word which evolved from Pro-Slavic, which evolved from PIE. In Polish we have for example derived forms like ‘zboży’, ‘ubogi’, ‘nieboga’ etc., and many verbs, adjectives, nouns derived from that. Many more than Iranians or Indians together.

    For you to consider:

    “The Sanskrit Language” Thomas Burrow Page 22-23



    http://books.google.pl/books?id=cWDh...woreds&f=false

    You can also read about similarities between Slavic and Vedic Sanskrit here:
    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...&postcount=128

    I suggest that you read carefully many posts by Dhira Simha and myself.

    I agree with his opinion that Proto-Slavonic = Proto-Indo-Iranian, i.e. before Aryans left Europe 2000 BC and went to Asia they were speaking very similar language to Proto-Slavonic. Proper Indo-Iranian languages evolved in Asia.

    Here is some info about migrations from Central-Eastern Europe to Asia:

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...11&postcount=5

    Haha proto Slavonic =Proto Indo-Iranian. Nice one. Indo-Iranian R1a seems to be significantly Z93+ and even though there might have been other lineages in ancient times Z93+ is important.

    Proto Slavic exists later than Proto Indo-Iranian. These must have been some superior people for them to have been speaking a language that didn't exist during their time. Why Central Europe? I wasn't aware Yamna was in Central Europe.

    How did Ossetians get their language from Iran? When Iran has R1a, R1b, J2a, J1 and the Osssetians all seem to be mostly G. Zero percent R1a indicates a bottleneck, Turko-Mongol had strong effects on their population or they got their language from a few Alanic nomads. But in all likelihood they have close to zero ancestry from iranian nomads from the steepe and from Iranians. They are just native Caucasians who probably got their language from a few Alan nomads.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-23 at 03:16 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by geomattica View Post
    First, no I don't think its good to forget logic. That's pretty bad.

    You are making a 1 to 1 correlation with genes to languages. That's erroneous logic. For instance I speak English as my native tongue but I am not an Englishman and my DNA is not like an Englishman. Its completely possible to speak a language yet possess certain other genetic traits not similar w/the ethno-linguitstic group as a whole. Jaska, another user here involved in this stuff, gets this idea well.

    You also mistakenly refer to Ossetians as Scythians. They are not Scythians. They, in the historical record, are regarded as Sarmatians, another Iranian speaking steppe people. There were two different macro level terms for the Iranian speaking nomadic groups of the steppes deriving from western sources: Scythian and Sarmatian.

    Last I heard, Satem and Kentum were still valid linguistic aspects within the realm of Indo-European studies. Mr. Burrows is entitled to his own opinion but I doubt there wasn't a Scythian (Iranian) influence on Slavic languages. As for the rest of your sources, I'm really not interested in more forum board propaganda.
    Proto Slavic didn't even exist at the time of IE migrations east. Indo-Iranian is quite different from Slavic which despite certain users attempts to connect to Indo-Iranian will always be connected with baltic. There is a lot of truth to the full satemization of Indo-Iranian.
    Last edited by newtoboard; 2012-06-23 at 04:42.

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