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Thread: Origins of the British2677 days old

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonny View Post
    the Norman invasion being genetically unimportant.
    I disagree. This could be one of the more important ones. Whether they were Norwegian -> French/Norman -> England again in a few generations is unlikely and would have had minimal impact. Many Normans were of local French stock, probably dating back to the fierce Gauls.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-21 at 23:23 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by justhere View Post
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...itishgene.html

    http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/ma...itishancestry/

    Most modern studies indicate that the English are of predominantly pre-saxon descent.
    Quotes/Studies taken from a site with "myths" in its name should be taken exactly as that, Myths.

    This ancient (2001 era) belief was taken from the fact the majority of men from British Isles and Ireland are R1b, and using a direct correlation to isolated Basque who are predominantly R1b...that they must all be of Palaeolithic stock. Well, unfortunately, about 40% of European men east to west (perhaps minus Russia) are R1b. How do you figure, considering that Basque are an isolated non-entity whose entire population is trivial? Europe didn't rise out of the Pyrenees despite what some think.

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    did the Romans (Italians) left any genetics in britain?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    I disagree. This could be one of the more important ones. Whether they were Norwegian -> French/Norman -> England again in a few generations is unlikely and would have had minimal impact. Many Normans were of local French stock, probably dating back to the fierce Gauls.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-21 at 23:23 ----------



    Quotes/Studies taken from a site with "myths" in its name should be taken exactly as that, Myths.

    This ancient (2001 era) belief was taken from the fact the majority of men from British Isles and Ireland are R1b, and using a direct correlation to isolated Basque who are predominantly R1b...that they must all be of Palaeolithic stock. Well, unfortunately, about 40% of European men east to west (perhaps minus Russia) are R1b. How do you figure, considering that Basque are an isolated non-entity whose entire population is trivial? Europe didn't rise out of the Pyrenees despite what some think.
    The Norman impact is unimportant not because of who they were, but because of the small numbers involved. Roughly 7-10,000 people crossed the channel, with a population of up to 2 or 3 million in England alone.
    On a cultural scale obviously it made a huge difference, but genetically not so much, especially as the people coming in were very similar to the existing population anyway.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-22 at 09:25 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheamus View Post
    did the Romans (Italians) left any genetics in britain?
    We just don't know.
    When you are part of a huge empire like that for a few hundred years, with such a diverse populace, then it seems obvious that some immigration will have taken place. Roman military policy suggests that there would have been some low level of immigration; they liked to send soldiers from far away places to guard parts of the empire, so that they wouldn't be inclined to join the locals in revolt amongst other reasons.
    But it's difficult to say exactly what impact they would have had. We don't even have a clear view of what the average Roman (from Rome) would have been like genetically.

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    Y-DNA frequency studies have tended to show an appreciable amount of Anglo-Saxon influence in Britain, especially southeastern England. R1b-U106 and I1-Z58 have clearly highest frequencies within West Germanic populations as a whole. However, it's difficult to assign percentages of influence by migration, even solely on the Y line. Suffice it to say that some regions reach a majority of apparent Anglo-Saxon influence on the Y line, like East Anglia, while some regions have very little apparent Anglo-Saxon influence on the Y line, like Wales.

    Previous autosomal studies have shown about what you'd expect if the truth lied somewhere in-between "pure Anglo-Saxon invasion theory" and "pure pre-Anglo-Saxon continuity theory." Eurogenes, for example, has showed that the Cornish and SW Scots cluster a bit closer to the Irish than to SE English, and that the SE English trend toward the Dutch, but not quite all the way.

    Perhaps the most exciting research on the full genome of British folks is coming out soon from Sir Walter Bodmer and the People of the British Isles project. Check out the full-genome cluster map they've recently released! They've begun discussing the implications of it to the media already. Basically, they're arguing that most of the English--especially those in the south and center of England--form an obviously young cluster that can only easily be explained by a shared Anglo-Saxon heritage. They also argue that the Cornish and Welsh are genetic outliers, probably due to Celtic continuity and a lack of Germanic influence. And they further argue that the greatest genetic outliers are in the Ornkeys... presumably due to massive Scandinavian influence there.

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    Last edited by Jonny; 2012-06-22 at 21:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwestos View Post
    I think its outdated to look at Brits this way, because there have been so many immigrants in XIX and especially XX century. Pakistani/Indian origins, Carribeans, Jews and various Europeans etc. They somehow always dissapear in the shadow.
    he's talking about ethnnic brits. not foreigners. just because there has been a spanish and english influence in native america and that it added significantly to the genepool of the natives (especially in central and south america) at the end of the day that doesn't make them (the europeans) any more native american.
    one step closer to world domination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonny View Post
    Surprisingly, there isn't a thread dedicated to the origins of the British and Irish people.

    As far as I can tell, there isn't exactly much consensus. Clearly there was some Anglo-Saxon settlement, but nobody can agree whether they were a small group or a part of a mass migration. We know that people were here before the Romans arrived, but as for when they got here, what languages they spoke and who they were, again there is not a single widely agreed upon answer.

    Please post all the interesting articles and studies you know of, as well as your opinions.

    Common ground. These are things we can all agree on.

    1. Humans lived in Britain at various times before the ice age. These people may be part of our genepool, but only after recolonising the land. Probably nobody lived here during the ice age.
    2. Scottish people are primarily made up of Picts, people who lived in Scotland during and immediately prior to the Roman conquest, as well as Scots, who came from Ireland.
    3. Welsh people are primarily made up of the pre-Roman Britons.
    4. R1b is the most common haplogroup in all of the British isles. We share a deep connection with Iberia, France and other areas of Europe. At some point they started speaking Celtic languages, which still remain in parts of the isles.
    5. There was definitely some sort of migration from Northern Germany and Denmark. They brought Old English and were from tribes called Angles, Saxons and Jutes.
    6. Viking settlement certainly occurred across the British isles, which was the last major addition to our genepool, the Norman invasion being genetically unimportant.
    no we/they don't. Those Paleolithic hunter gatherers from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge spread all around Europe afaik. How come all those autosomal maps showed no major relation with Iberia if R-M269 is so common in both countries. Even the Irish often show a fair amount of overlap with the Dutch and sometimes Scandies and nothing with Iberia

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostface View Post
    no we/they don't. Those Paleolithic hunter gatherers from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge spread all around Europe afaik. How come all those autosomal maps showed no major relation with Iberia if R-M269 is so common in both countries. Even the Irish often show a fair amount of overlap with the Dutch and sometimes Scandies and nothing with Iberia
    But it is common in both Iberia and Britain.
    How else could that be explained than with some important link?

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    Quote Originally Posted by elone View Post
    he's talking about ethnnic brits. not foreigners. just because there has been a spanish and english influence in native america and that it added significantly to the genepool of the natives (especially in central and south america) at the end of the day that doesn't make them (the europeans) any more native american.

    there is a stage when 'foreigners' become 'ethnic' but its hard to catch up the very moment.
    Am I right or am I wrong?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwestos View Post
    there is a stage when 'foreigners' become 'ethnic' but its hard to catch up the very moment.
    I will make a clarification for those who are unable to spot such basic trolling.

    This thread is about the inhabitants of the British Isles from before 1200AD and their descendents.

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