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Thread: Origins of the British2649 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhiannon View Post
    I was never under the impression that Norman DNA genepool contribution was insignificant??

    Nvmd...looks like another post of yours answered this question. Still, I was always under the opposite impression, lol
    Socially and linguistically the invasion was very important but there just were not that many invaders to make a genetic difference.
    You can still find the impacts of it though, primarily in surnames.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwestos View Post
    I think its outdated to look at Brits this way, because there have been so many immigrants in XIX and especially XX century. Pakistani/Indian origins, Carribeans, Jews and various Europeans etc. They somehow always dissapear in the shadow.


    Haha reminded me of this bitch.

    Sorry for the off-topic, guys. I´m leaving the premises...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    STR variance is irrelevant to the origins of a haplogroup or its expansion points. That's because there are several factors that can increase variance, like the presence of different subclades or recent mixing of groups carrying different subclades.

    So the reason U106 variance is high in Poland and the Baltic states is because those areas have admixtures from very diverse sources across Northwestern Europe, including North Germany, Scotland, Flanders and Denmark.

    Some people, especially Western European genetic genealogists, don't want to accept this, because they'd like to see the origins of Germanic tribes as close to the prehistoric Eastern European kurgan cultures as possible.

    Unfortunately for them, U106 isn't native to Eastern Europe, and had nothing to do with the Kurgan cultures. That's why it's missing from all kurgan and related remains tested to date, from Germany to Siberia.

    Anyway, I think this study will answer a lot of questions. The nice thing about it is that it also includes a large Polish sample.

    People of the British Isles: An analysis of the genetic contributions of European populations to a UK control population

    It should be published in a journal any day now.
    Ok, although surely if there are several factors that increase variance - that doesn't make one of those factors irrelevant, just puts it into question?

    Was one other idea that U106 spread north from north or east of the Alpine area, or Austria (once it had arrived first of course)?

    Yeah i'm hoping it will answer many questions.

    I'm just referring on various things that I've read, although i appreciate that Western European genetic genaeologists and hobbyists are also subject to bias. They seem to spend a lot of time delving into these questions, armed with both data from studies (Busby is one i believe that seems to get mentioned a lot, and i think R. Rocca and others published one too?) and the R1b projects. So there seems to be more conversation, theorizing and experimentation with R1b and with the STR variance there than most other places.

    You are right of course, i shouldn't just trust things straight away, especially if it is subject to bias. Perhaps i was too definite in my statements . Although i don't think there is anywhere completely bias-free in academia or the discussion of it.

    Yeah i hope it is published ASAP, while it would make a good Christmas release, i don't think i could wait that long. By the looks of it they have included a very large number of mainland European samples too - Do you know if they will make the samples available for use at all? I could imagine your project expanding if they are, especially with the Polish samples you mention. Actually with all that data hopefully it will help projects like Eurogenes, MDLP, Dodecad etc push even further forward. More information is a good thing.

    ---------- Post Merged at 23:07 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rochefaton View Post
    One thing I would like to point out is that Y-DNA R-U152, which is found in British men, is present in Ireland due to immigrants from Britain. It is not present in Irishmen with native Irish paternal lines.

    http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Resources.pdf





    It is still a mystery as to how R-U152 made its way to the Isles, but it is likely that its presence there is relatively young compared to the other R1b subclades.
    I think the Belgic Gauls might have had a part to play in that, in Kent and the south-east i believe there is a strong possibility of Belgic settlement, and even now it's highest in the south-east and Kent. So imagine most of it was brought with continental Gaulish contact, then Kent seems to have sheltered to some degree from the Germanic tribes, and then as they became English probably spread even further from there. That's over-simplistic of course, but it's what it looks like.

    I really like the U152 site, got some useful information:

    http://u152.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9%3Au 152-along-the-english-channel&catid=1&Itemid=61

    I think someone recently noticed that U152 is surprisingly common in eastern Scotland (I don't know of the reliability of the data). It would be interesting if U152 made up a major part of Iron Age and Roman Britain, in the east of the Island.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SEJJ View Post
    Ok, although surely if there are several factors that increase variance - that doesn't make one of those factors irrelevant, just puts it into question?
    No one really knows how to age haplogroups or pinpoint their origins and major expansion hotspots. Everything on the topic is pure speculation or just plain erroneous. So there's really no evidence of U106 originating in East Europe, Central Europe, or anywhere in particular.

    Hopefully ancient DNA will help, as well as new resequencing technology.

    Do you know if they will make the samples available for use at all? I could imagine your project expanding if they are, especially with the Polish samples you mention. Actually with all that data hopefully it will help projects like Eurogenes, MDLP, Dodecad etc push even further forward. More information is a good thing.
    They won't be because they come from a medical database, called the Wellcome Trust. Medical databases hardly ever release any of their raw data to the public, even if it's not really all the sensitive.

    But loads of new samples from across Europe will become available soon from population genetics labs. We just have to wait for their papers to be published first, and as soon as that happens, the data will be released. Maybe that'll happen this year, but probably early next year for the most part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    No one really knows how to age haplogroups or pinpoint their origins and major expansion hotspots. Everything on the topic is pure speculation or just plain erroneous. So there's really no evidence of U106 originating in East Europe, Central Europe, or anywhere in particular.

    Hopefully ancient DNA will help, as well as new resequencing technology.



    They won't be because they come from a medical database, called the Wellcome Trust. Medical databases hardly ever release any of their raw data to the public, even if it's not really all the sensitive.

    But loads of new samples from across Europe will become available soon from population genetics labs. We just have to wait for their papers to be published first, and as soon as that happens, the data will be released. Maybe that'll happen this year, but probably early next year for the most part.
    Ahh i see, yeah i keep forgetting they are funded by the Wellcome Trust.

    Hope so. It's pretty funny when you sit back and think how fast this whole thing is moving, when there's still books from the 80s, 90s and perhaps before used in other spheres such as Archaeology (which is not a true science of course) and in History. I suppose it's comparable more to things like medicine anyway, which seems to be evolving pretty fast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SEJJ View Post
    Ahh i see, yeah i keep forgetting they are funded by the Wellcome Trust.

    Hope so. It's pretty funny when you sit back and think how fast this whole thing is moving, when there's still books from the 80s, 90s and perhaps before used in other spheres such as Archaeology (which is not a true science of course) and in History. I suppose it's comparable more to things like medicine anyway, which seems to be evolving pretty fast.
    Paleolithic


    Neolithic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonny View Post
    Paleolithic


    Neolithic


    Although... You forgot the Mesolithic:


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    I wonder how much autosomal impact very old Britons like Cheddar Man have had (people who were already there long before the Celts, Saxons or Normans). They have found among contemporary locals the same mtDNA haplogroup with the exact (or near exact) matches he had, in the very same area:

    Cheddar Man is the name given to the remains of a human male found in Gough's Cave in Cheddar Gorge, Somerset, England. The remains date to approximately 7150 BC, and it appears that he died a violent death. It is Britain’s oldest complete human skeleton.

    Bryan Sykes' research into Cheddar Man was filmed as he performed it in 1997. As a means of connecting Cheddar Man to the living residents of Cheddar village, he compared mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) taken from twenty living residents of the village to that extracted from Cheddar Man’s molar. It produced two exact matches and one match with a single mutation. The two exact matches were schoolchildren, and their names were not released.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheddar_man
    Sche innam me pepicke keseagu

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    I am familiar with older and obscurer theories on this topic of the indigenous (Upper Palaeolithic and Mesolithic) inhabitants of Britain, so I will outline some of them. I would recommend though Ancient Britain and the invasions of Julius Caesar by T. Rice Holmes, which discusses many of these theories at the back of the work.

    1. Eskimids - This was a theory developed by William Boyd Dawkins in the late 19th century. He identified early Upper Palaeolithic tools and artwork resembling that of the Eskimos. The anthropological support for the theory also came from the observation of oblique (e.g. "Mongolian") eyes in both cave art depictions, but also among living peoples in Britain. For example Beddoe in his study The Races of Britain (1885) notes: ''I think some reason can be shown for suspecting the existence of traces of some Mongoloid race in the modern population of Wales and the West of England. The most notable indication is the oblique or Chinese eye.'' This theory however isn't really traceable beyond these authors. However it may be that Lapps once extended into Britain, which explains this trait. Lappids are boreal adapted and have acquired more oblique eyes through convergence (the old theory of Mongoloid admixture is now quite discredited).

    Dawkins, William Boyd. (1880). Early Man in Britain and his place in the Tertiary Period. Macmillan and Co.
    Beddoe, John. (1885). The Races of Britain. Bristol: Arrowsmith. Online here:
    http://archive.org/details/racesofbritainco00bedd

    2. Australoids - This theory was developed by folklorist David MacRitchie in his Ancient and Modern Britons, a Retrospect (1884, 2 vol.) which traces an aboriginal population in Britain of dark skin, but wavy haired. MacRitchie shows how this population was nearly exterminated, but survived in very small numbers into later time periods - where they appeared as gypsies (not as immigrants as they became known). Obviously a controversal idea, not even well known. Later MacRitchie developed his theory that the Picts were in fact a dark skinned dwarf remnant of this aboriginal stock. If you search for "Pygmy-Pict" on a search engine, you should get more information about this, although I generally recommend any of MacRitchie's literature. It also should be noted various non-fringe scientists of the day supported some of MacRitchie's theories. For example Thomas Huxley reported on an Australoid skull unearthed in Scotland, various "dwarf" skeletons have also been unearthed, but are today are hardly ever found discussed in any modern literature.

    3. Hamites - The eminent Welsh scholar Ryhs, discovered a supposed Hamitic language substratum in Wales and other parts of Britain. The Pictish language he believed can be traced to Egyptian and Berber. This theory is generally linked to the idea the aboriginal British were a Mesolithic wave of small Mediterranean peoples moving through from North Africa, the Spanish peninsula to finally Britain. These peoples were later associated with the Neolithic long barrow culture, and were longer-headed than a later arriving people of the Bronze Age. Professor Grafton Elliot Smith's classic text The Ancient Egyptians notes: ''So striking is the family likeness between the early Neolithic peoples of the British Isles and the Mediterranean and the bulk of the population, both ancient and modern of Egypt and East Africa, that a description of the bones of an Early Briton of that remote epoch might apply in all essential details to an inhabitant of Somaliland.'' Note: Coon (1939) came to the same conclusion.

    Morris-Jones, J. (1900). ''Pre-Aryan syntax in insular Celtic''. In Rhys, John and Brynmor-Jones, David (eds), The Welsh People (4th ed., London, 1906), pp. 617–41.
    Smith, Grafton Elliot. (1911). The Ancient Egyptians. Harper & Brothers.

    Other theories exist, but most seem to be in agreement that the aboriginal Britons were short statured and darkish. Much more interesting theories however exist for later periods: Sumerians, Trojans and Phoenicians. These though wouldn't have been large scale migrations, but just traders; however they may have left some small phenotype input. Beddoe (1885) discusses what he saw as Phoenician (Semitic) features in some Cornish. This was a former major tin mining area, and it wouldn't surprise me. More recently Lundman (1957) discusses this in an article.

    Lundman, Bertil. (1957) ''The Problem of Ancient Oriental Shipping on the North Sea''. Journal of Near Eastern Studies. 16. pp. 105-117.

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