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Thread: Empires in ancient-medieval India and migrations.2595 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by saran View Post
    R2 is interesting in that not only almost all of R2-M124 is found in South Asia, but nearly all of its precursor R2-M479 are found in South Asia too. All the R* tested so far for M479 have turned out R2-M479+. That is not the case with R1a1 where its precursors are yet to be confirmed in South Asia.

    The two R* from Sengupta:
    bag-23 bag India East South Asia Caste-low Indo-EuropeanM207R* 15 12 17 13 24 10 11 13 10 9
    iyr-19 iyr India South South Asia Caste-high Dravidian M207 R* 14 12 16 14 24 10 12 12 11 10
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...230/table/TB3/
    The Iyer one looks to be R2-M479, the Bagdi may be a genuine R*xM173xM479

    The Myres paper found all the R* they tested to be M479+.
    "All of the haplogroup R-M207 chromosomes studied were derived for either the R1-M173 or R2-M479 markers, ie no R-M207* chromosomes were detected in our sample"
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3039512/

    Similarly, in the FTDNA's R* project, all those that have tested for M479 were found to be R2-M479+. http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ysnp
    Taking R2-M479 out of the picture for one second, and based on the current distribution in the R2-WTY project. It almost seems like two major R2a-M124 splits exist in South Asia. Those who are R2a1-L295 are the dominant group and they make up the majority. This lineage exists all over India but almost all South and East Indians are L295+. Then as you move Northwest toward Pakistan you'll start to notice a mix of L295+ and L295-. The L295- is possibly just undiscovered R2a lineages, for now, they're simply not the common folk deep in India. Next to South Asia, I would say R2a has an interesting presence in the Middle East. L295+ surely does exist but it's more common among Gulf Arabs, while those up north in Iran/Anatolia/Caucasus tend to be L295- for most part.

    As far as R2-M479 goes, it's too early to speculate. It's true that most if not all R* men may very well be R2*. But I'm also positive that the R2* are likely undiscovered R2 lineages (Possibly R2b, R2c, etc), and while the existence of R2* is too small, the spread of it is quite big existing all over South Asia, Central Asia, Middle East, and even Europe. So we cannot pin-point anything unless further studies are done.
    Y-DNA Ancestors
    Paternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> R2a*
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> J1*
    Maternal Grandmother's Y-DNA --> J2a4b*

    mtDNA Ancestors
    Maternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> T1*
    Paternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> H*

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    Do people agree with this sequence of migrations?
    The Negritos: They are the oldest racial group of India. Tribal groups such as Kadars, Poligars, Irulas and some tribals from Rajmahall Hills and Andaman Nicobar Islands.
    The Proto-Australoids: They are the 2nd oldest racial group in India. This racial group is represented by Oraons, Mundas, Santhals , Chenchus , Kurumbas , Bhils and Kols.
    Mongloids: The mongloid racial stock in India is concentrated in the Himalayan borderlands , Particularly in Ladak, Sikkim, Arunachal Pradesh.
    The Mediterraneans: These are long headed people, who brought high level of civilization and the bearer of earliest form of Hinduism. We can find three distinct groups of these racial stocks
    Palaeo Mediterraneans are represented by Tamil and Telugu Brahmins.
    Mediterraneans were the builders of Indus valley civilization and are now they constitute the bulk of the population of lower castes in North India and are also represented by the Namboodiri , Allahabad and Bengal Brahmins.
    Oriental types are represented by Punjabi Kharties and Rajasthani Banias.
    The Western Brachycephals: These groups consists of the three main types.
    Alphinoids represented by Gujarati Banias, Kathis of Kathiawar and Kayasthas of Bengal.
    Dinaric represented by populations of Bengal, Orissa and Coorg.
    Armenoids represented by Parsis,Bengali Vaidyas.
    Nordics: They were the last to migrate into India. These people were called the Aryans. They were a predominant type in the North Western Frontier Province of Pakistan, Punjab , Haryana and Rajasthan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soulblighter View Post
    There is hearsay legend amongst my family, that our ancestors moved to Tamilnadu from ratnagiri, Maharashtra. So the coastal route may be true. One of the daily rituals in my family involves reciting the following verse every evening (I dont anymore, as my FSM religion forbids this )

    Narmadayai namah pratah Narmadayai namo nisi
    Namostu Narmade tubhyam pahi mam visha-sarpatah

    I guess this tradition has something to with the river Narmada. Whether it is truly historical or some random B.S chanting, I do not know.
    My ancestral district in Gujarat is situated at the mouth of the holy river Narmada, and is said to have been named after one of the great Saptarishis - Maharishi Bhrigu himself (who had his ashram there).


    From wiki:

    Hindu Mythology

    Sage Bhrigu's ashram is located on the Narmada banks. According to the Skanda Purana, before Bhrigu rishi came here, Bharuch was the residence place of Goddess Lakshmi.

    Bharuch derives its name from the great sage Bhrigu. The original name of Bharuch is Bhrigukachchha. Bhrigu rishi was one of the ten sons of Lord Brahma. There is also a story which indicates that Brighu along with his kins asked for temporary access to Bharuch which then belonged to Lakshmi since Bharuch is located on the banks of river Narmada also known as Rudra Deha. Chanra Mauli Mahadev is the Kul Devata of Bhargavs of Bharuch Brighu never left the place and the Ashram of Brighu Rishi is located on the banks of Narmada.

    Bharuch was considered to be sacred among sages, and they would come to Bharuch to pray. The priests of Bharuch were famous for their learning in the other regions too. As per the mythological stories, Agnihotri and Samvedi, the learned priests of Bharuch were famous up to the Kashi in the northern India.

    In Bharuch, the celebrated Asura king Mahabali, conducted a great sacrifice. In this sacrifice, a dwarf Brahmin called Vamana (fifth incarnation of Lord Vishnu) came and interfered with the king's sacrifice and put an end to his reign. A sage named Guru Shukracharya, from the lineage of Maharishi Bhrigu, was the priest of King Mahabali.

    Sages like Shukra, Chyavana, Markendeya and Jamadagni were from the linage of Bhrigu rishi. Parshurama (sixth incarnation of Lord Vishnu) was born in the seventh generation of Bhrigu.

    According to the Skanda Purana, there are fifty-five (55) tirthas located in Bharuch. Many great sages like Kashyapa, Kapila, Mandavya, Adi Sankaracharya, etc. also have performed penances in Bharuch.

    Bharuch finds its mention in all major Hindu scriptures like Bhagavata Purana, Shiva Purana, Skanda Purana, Kurma Purana, Matsya Purana, Ramayana, Mahabharata, etc.

    The Narmada happens to be one of the most sacred of the five holy rivers of India; the other four being Ganges, Yamuna, Godavari and Kaveri. It is believed that a dip in any of these five rivers washes ones sins away. According to a legend, the river Ganges is polluted by millions of people bathing in it. To cleanse herself, Ganges acquires the form of a black cow and comes to the Narmada to bath in its holy waters. Legends also mention that the Narmada River is older than the river Ganges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by birko19 View Post
    Taking R2-M479 out of the picture for one second, and based on the current distribution in the R2-WTY project. It almost seems like two major R2a-M124 splits exist in South Asia. Those who are R2a1-L295 are the dominant group and they make up the majority. This lineage exists all over India but almost all South and East Indians are L295+. Then as you move Northwest toward Pakistan you'll start to notice a mix of L295+ and L295-. The L295- is possibly just undiscovered R2a lineages, for now, they're simply not the common folk deep in India. Next to South Asia, I would say R2a has an interesting presence in the Middle East. L295+ surely does exist but it's more common among Gulf Arabs, while those up north in Iran/Anatolia/Caucasus tend to be L295- for most part.

    As far as R2-M479 goes, it's too early to speculate. It's true that most if not all R* men may very well be R2*. But I'm also positive that the R2* are likely undiscovered R2 lineages (Possibly R2b, R2c, etc), and while the existence of R2* is too small, the spread of it is quite big existing all over South Asia, Central Asia, Middle East, and even Europe. So we cannot pin-point anything unless further studies are done.


    Columns are misaligned.
    R-M124 - 8.21%
    R-M17 12.74%
    R-M207 2.02%
    P-M45 (xM207, xM242) 0.36%
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...e.0050269.t002
    Last edited by saran; 2012-11-29 at 18:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saran View Post

    Columns are misaligned.
    R-M124 - 8.21%
    R-M17 12.74%
    R-M207 2.02%
    P-M45 (xM207, xM242) 0.36%
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...e.0050269.t002
    These numbers don't show R2a1-L295 unfortunately. I'm willing to bet that the majority of the tested subjects are L295+. This is based on what we have in our R2-FTDNA project. Out of the 24 South Indians that tested for L295, 21 of them are L295+. The 3 samples that tested negative were all Malayali-Indians from Kerala (2 of them are confirmed Syrian Christians, while the other one did not share background information):

    Y-DNA Ancestors
    Paternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> R2a*
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> J1*
    Maternal Grandmother's Y-DNA --> J2a4b*

    mtDNA Ancestors
    Maternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> T1*
    Paternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> H*

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    Quote Originally Posted by birko19 View Post
    These numbers don't show R2a1-L295 unfortunately. I'm willing to bet that the majority of the tested subjects are L295+. This is based on what we have in our R2-FTDNA project. Out of the 24 South Indians that tested for L295, 21 of them are L295+. The 3 samples that tested negative were all Malayali-Indians from Kerala (2 of them are confirmed Syrian Christians, while the other one did not share background information):
    ...
    Plus no M479 test either! I understand that L295 can be a problem to publish, but I have no idea why they can't test SNPs already established in the publication stream.

    At least they have published STRs and if you have any delineating marker you could check. They did find lot of R-M207 most of which is probably M479.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saran View Post
    Plus no M479 test either! I understand that L295 can be a problem to publish, but I have no idea why they can't test SNPs already established in the publication stream.

    At least they have published STRs and if you have any delineating marker you could check. They did find lot of R-M207 most of which is probably M479.
    Most of it could be R2-M479, but don't forget that some of it could could also be R1b. Even though it's a rare, it still exists in India.

    Btw, they don't test certain SNPs because they either don't care about such lineages, or they don't know about them. Mind you, I do find it absurd how they don't test for M479.
    Y-DNA Ancestors
    Paternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> R2a*
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-DNA --> J1*
    Maternal Grandmother's Y-DNA --> J2a4b*

    mtDNA Ancestors
    Maternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> T1*
    Paternal Grandmother's mtDNA --> H*

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinb
    "Avdhichya brahmin"
    Sounds very similar to the "Vadama Iyers" in South India. Like soulblighter, I do have the same prayer concerning the Narmada River. Given just how well I pass in Gujarat, it just might be likely. The other relation I have theorized is West Bengal because of the influence of Vijayanagara Empire. Which seems to correlate with genetic studies that find Iyers and Iyengars closest to Deshashta Brahmins of Maharashtra and Bengali Brahmins. Is it any coincidence that I get mistaken for being Gujarati, Marathi or Bengali most of the time? :P

    I don't know where the Vadama Iyers come from, but they are mostly likely descended from Naramdev Brahmins of Gujarat or Shaiva Brahmin communities of Gujarat and MP (which may themselves be related to Deshashta Brahmins).

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    Quote Originally Posted by OliveWonder View Post
    Given just how well I pass in Gujarat, it just might be likely. The other relation I have theorized is West Bengal because of the influence of Vijayanagara Empire. Which seems to correlate with genetic studies that find Iyers and Iyengars closest to Deshashta Brahmins of Maharashtra and Bengali Brahmins. Is it any coincidence that I get mistaken for being Gujarati, Marathi or Bengali most of the time? :P
    Both you and ashwin sound like you're trolling now, and it's very apt that you turned up around the same time that he went on his rampage (vacation off from Anthroscape perhaps?). I don't know who told you those porkies but they're totally wrong; if I saw you on the street I wouldn't take you for one of my kind. You could pass for Gujarati arbitrarily because the phenotypic variation is huge but there's still something I find standoffish about you. And how the hell could you be able to pass for both Gujarati and Bengali at the same time - the two ethnic groups are on the opposite extremes of the spectrum, and I'm sure you know that!

    Seriously I've seen your pictures and I could tell right off the bat that you're from the South. Yes, you could pass among us arbitrarily however it's not a phenotype that I would strongly associate with Gujaratis. You should be proud of being Tamil ... oldest classical civilization on Earth.

    Dev Patel is the 'stereotyped' Gujarati:


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    Everyone knows who has been trolling all India and Indians related threads,flooding them with pictures of a relatively small Gujarati muslims community. And yes a vacation off Anthroscape. You should join a detective agency, you pick up trends and coincidences very quickly.
    And discuss only about empires and migrations on this thread,please.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by OliveWonder View Post

    I don't know where the Vadama Iyers come from, but they are mostly likely descended from Naramdev Brahmins of Gujarat or Shaiva Brahmin communities of Gujarat and MP (which may themselves be related to Deshashta Brahmins).
    Brahmins,followed by traders were probably the most mobile people in the past,other than Nomadic tribes. And artisans too, so everyone had a reason to migrate. Administrators were given land by kings and emperors, alloted rather, so too had an incentive to move.
    olivewonder, do you know if the ancient tamil society had a priest class, if they exercised any influence on the socio-politico affairs of the state?

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