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Thread: Saami and Khanty2523 days old

  1. #411
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    Another admixture plot that I'd like to post because it contains Saami examples from this Tambets study

    Let's see.

    K3 is general "Western Eurasian" vs "Eastern Eurasian" division.
    K6 has more breakdown with orange probably representing more specific "Siberian" component. It peaks among Nganasans.
    K9 splits "Western Siberian" component apart, which is pink in color. It peaks among Khanty. Now, you see this component also in NE Europe, including Saamis, but you see it only barely among Nganasans, which is probably due to recent Samoyedic admixture anyway.
    K11 shows that Swedish Saami form their own component.




    I see it like this. Saami have gotten the sort of Eastern Eurasian admixture, which originates from Western Siberia. But due to genetic drift and population history they have formed their own distinct genetic signature.
    Last edited by Evi; 2019-04-28 at 20:59.

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    JaM (2019-04-29), Yyy (2019-04-28)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JaM View Post
    Whether they walked straight from North Africa to Sámiland, or made detour via the OB river (a really counterintuitive scenario) doesn't matter
    If the Proto-Uralic Urheimat is placed somewhere in the Volga-Ural region and the Pre-Proto-Uralic Urheimat is placed somewhere around the area of the Turkic, Mongolic, and Tungusic Urheimats, why would a "detour via the Ob river" be counterintuitive (or even a detour)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evi View Post
    I see it like this. Saami have gotten the sort of Eastern Eurasian admixture, which originates from Western Siberia.
    In the GWAS about Turkic-speaking peoples from 2015 (https://i.imgur.com/UIdGNBb.jpg), at K=8 there is a component which is maximal in Nganasan, and which accounts for most of the Mongoloid admixture in Uralic-speaking populations and Kets. It doesn't mean that the Mongoloid ancestry of Saami originates in the Taymyr.

    If the Proto-Uralic Urheimat is placed on the European side of the Urals, the linguistic ancestors of Khanty originate from Europe. There is little evidence for where the linguistic ancestors of the Proto-Uralic people in turn came from, so I still consider it feasible that they came from Central Asia (like Volga Bulgars) or from East Asia (like the Mongols who conquered Volga Bulgaria). I'm still not sure if the Kipchak-speaking linguistic ancestors of Tatars and Bashkirs arrived to the Volga-Ural region from Central Asia or from West Siberia.

  5. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evi View Post
    Another admixture plot that I'd like to post because it contains Saami examples from this Tambets study

    Let's see.

    K3 is general "Western Eurasian" vs "Eastern Eurasian" division.
    K6 has more breakdown with orange probably representing more specific "Siberian" component. It peaks among Nganasans.
    K9 splits "Western Siberian" component apart, which is pink in color. It peaks among Khanty. Now, you see this component also in NE Europe, including Saamis, but you see it only barely among Nganasans, which is probably due to recent Samoyedic admixture anyway.
    K11 shows that Swedish Saami form their own component.




    I see it like this. Saami have gotten the sort of Eastern Eurasian admixture, which originates from Western Siberia. But due to genetic drift and population history they have formed their own distinct genetic signature.
    That's an interesting set, but I have seen others in the past which showed no such East Asian in Sami (posted here in the past). In fact there's a pretty big difference between different studies. However, the increased components shows them as a separate entity, which I have not seen before. In any case, in your example it's somewhat the same case as I described for the "Siberians", just applied to the Swedish Sámi in this case. I think in this case, PCA plots will show the more true relation. I wonder if Sami initially were several different peoples even after they came to Scandinavia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yyy View Post
    If the Proto-Uralic Urheimat is placed somewhere in the Volga-Ural region and the Pre-Proto-Uralic Urheimat is placed somewhere around the area of the Turkic, Mongolic, and Tungusic Urheimats, why would a "detour via the Ob river" be counterintuitive (or even a detour)?
    Mainly because I don't believe in the idea of an "urheimat" in this case, or a single place where the Sámi came from as unified single people. It's much more likely that if they have ancestors actually from Siberia, from before they came to Scandinavia, that this ancestry is from south Siberia and only via admixture in their population. It's a matter of relevant time frame and there seem to be no consensus about that at all. For example, if the Uralic core population only moved north within a few thousand years, then it seems unlikely to me that an essential part of the Sami ancestry should come from that population. This is of course based on the study I linked to - which has nothing about the Sámi

    It's worth remembering how impenetrable the area immediately west of the north urals is, the Sámi originally, as far as I have read, did not have the reindeer herding system they have now, it seems to be a relatively recent development. It seems more likely that there was a somewhat recent cultural exchange between Sámi and some other population, which could indeed come from the east, but which will result in somewhat recent individual admixture as I mentioned above, if they intermarried.
    I could be wrong and the old studies could be mistaken, who knows?
    Last edited by JaM; 2019-04-29 at 05:32.

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    I have not seen any evidences of the Siberian or East Asian admixture of the speakers of Proto-Saami, only speculations. It is common that we have explanation theories in physics based on tight modells, but the margin of error in linguistics bases on contunously changing paradigms. In Finland the paradigm has changed every 20-30 years, practically meaning during each generation. Even in case we consider some certain progression in linguists we can't be sure that the next generation of researchers doesn't uncover something revolutionary. So, considering the relation between Saami languages and Siberian admixture as an urheimat event in present-day Saami populations, I wouldn't yet make my cup of tea.
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